In keeping with a theme, today’s topic also comes to us from VW Mike.
He suggested that we discuss Masonic Clubs.
Library of the New South Wales Masonic Club
I am not aware of any formalized Masonic Clubs within the Jurisdiction of Washington, but I presume that some Brothers here have either formed Clubs, or are thinking about forming Clubs, because a resolution about Masonic Clubs was introduced by a Lodge at our most recent Annual Communication.
I do know that Masonic Clubs did exist here, long ago, but faded away with the passage of time for reasons that I do not know.
So let’s, as VW Mike suggests, discuss it.
Would Masonic Clubs be a good way for like minded Brothers to have a slightly formal way of getting together to share their common interests? A Masonic D&D Club? Because I know a bunch of Brothers in the Vancouver area that are into that. A Masonic Model Railroader Club? Because I know some local Brothers who are into that. A Masonic Hermeticism Club? Because we have Brothers into that throughout the Jurisdiction. A Masonic Tarotist Club? Because we do have Brothers who enjoy collecting and using cards. A Masonic Car Club? Because I know a good number of Masons right in my hometown that are really into old cars.
Perhaps you are already a member of a Masonic Club and can share your experiences with us here?
If a Club was created, what would be the best way to find potential members? What would be the best way to structure and govern it? What details would need to be considered so that it would have a chance at success?
After my discharge from the Air Force in 1974, I went to work for General Dynamics (Stromberg-Carlson Div.) My manager noticed my Masonic ring and invited my to the company's next Square Club meeting. The Square Club had monthly meetings after work, and two cookouts during summer. It was a great way to meet other employees (men only). In my group of forty-eight engineers there was only one women engineer (the glass ceiling was still bulletproof). The company began shutting down operations about a year later, ending the Square Club due to layoffs. It would be against the law to organize a Square Club today given that women employees wouldn't qualify for membership. And states like Mississippi, Arkansas, South Carolina and West Virginia would have a problem as their respective Grand Lodges do not recognize Prince Hall freemasons.
Thank you for this historical perspective. It caused me to reflect on our Legislature, where I worked for most of my career. Long ago, if it had such a club, it would have included virtually all of the elected members (The Legislature didn't have much in the way of staff to speak of back then.) If something were to be tried now there would be three or four of us sitting around looking at each other. Times have certainly changed.
The Widows Sons is the fastest growing association of Master Masons in the world! For the jurisdictions that view motorcyclists as most people view them in this day & age, they have thrived and greatly added to the Masonic experience. For those that view it with the 1950’s mentality it has been a battle. With the sheer costs of owning a motorcycle these days, motorcyclists are made up of professionals, business owners, managers, and leaders of our society. The very persons masonry looks for, “good men” who we make better! Becoming a Widows Son enhanced my experience in Masonry, I met more Masons and made many men masons thru being a WS. Unfortunately, I also experienced some bigotry, and negativity from some of the “old guard” who still equate motorcycle riders to outlaws & criminals but I have tried to stay clear of them! I changed jurisdictions to a more progressive, positive, growing jurisdiction that focuses on the inner man and not the external appearance. I can attend lodge in North Dakota with my Harley parked outside the lodge or my pickup, or Buick and be greeted with a smile and a grip! I’m proud to be a Mason, and a Widows Son! For those who understand what the Widows Sons really are, a “glee club” promoting Freemasons world wide! We need more groups like the Widows Sons, snowmobile enthusiasts, golfers, fishermen, car guys, even a Masonic gun club! “Like minded men” who share the same hobbies expands the bond of friendship! This expansion will bring in quality people and dispel the myth that Masons are a bunch of old guys that go to meetings, and bring in younger men! The Old Guard has to realize they are members of the Masonic Order, not “Owners”!
I haven't seen any negativity from anyone towards the WS, in fact the WS does a pretty good job getting the grand lodge to support them, which makes things a lot easier for them to be accepted here in Washington. I'm not a member, but I do ride, and have never experienced any negativity towards it.
My only quibble with the WS, and this might just be the particular person I was dealing with, was the vibe I got that it was more copying a 1% club than a masonic group. As I said, that might have been because of the local chapter president, who has since been removed from office and the chapter. Unfortunately they moved the chapter and it's no longer convenient to attend any meetings anyway, so it's sort of a moot point now.
Not all jurisdictions are favorable to anything motorcyclists related. I took a demit from my mother lodge and removed myself from the control of the Grand Lodge of Manitoba after being a member for over 30 years and retained my membership in the adjoining State of North Dakota. When I joined Freemasonry I was a motorcycle enthusiast (not an outlaw), and I certainly was never told masonry & motorcycling was not compatible. I love the craft and have the utmost respect for the Fraternity, I still visit some lodges in Manitoba, but as a guest. Unfortunately the Grand Lodge under the direction of some individuals made the experience unacceptable to me so I’ve left. I have made some great life long fraternal friendships and do not regret my time spent in Lodge. I realize that the members are human, and unfortunately the power of position can go to some peoples heads. I was a DDGM, I didn’t rule my district I served it. Eventually things will level out & I may rejoin a lodge in Manitoba but I will remain a Mason as long as I tread this earth!
With all due respect and i mean this in the most loving way possible. Here were my observations this year. In NC we have a motorcycle group called "Knights of Solomon". Another motorcycle club was denied by our Grandmaster at one of our annual communications after the grand master ordered it members to renounce the group following a chapter trying to form outside of due process in NC and SC. They were also operating at the time in SC with its recognition. The Chapter president refused and effectively told the Grand master where to stick it in more vulgar terms. He and his group were all expelled from freemasonry. Earlier this year, I traveled to Tenn and was surprised by what I heard Widows sons speaking of. I overheard an initiate speaking of a "branding ceremony", and even though the larger group was wearing coat and tie, WS all wore their patches and jackets. They parked separate, they ate separate to the group, they acted differently. I have to say, Ill trust that people think that these clubs are masonic, while the brothers are members of the fraternal order, the behavior seems foreign and even contradictory in my humble opinion. One had a nearly nude woman on its badge as a group logo. The president of the chapter had Psycho tattooed on his neck. Several of the patches worn were vulgar to say the least. All I could think was, this represents freemasonry to the public, this represents me. Vulgarity, Branding ceremonies, and hazing. I say, tread carefully be certain that we don't delude further our core mission and tenants.
Your enthusiasm for the Widow's Sons is infectious!
WS is extremely active in my Jurisdiction, and I've not encountered much in the way of negativity towards it. I did hear one complaint, from one elderly Brother, but I think that's the only thing negative I've ever heard, and as I recall, the other members of the Lodge jumped to the defense of the WS.
While not a rider myself, the WS seems like a great group to me, and certainly something I would be interested in if I was.
I think you are right, we do need groups like the WS for a broad range of interests.
If you do join such a club, I could build your sailboat for you! I've become a Master Shipbuilder, and I offer a superb Warranty on my work. Fully Guaranteed for Ten Feet, or Ten Minutes, whichever comes sooner.
I am 88 and do not want to OWN a sailing yacht; that's why I like idea of club so I could sail with someone who has one.
FYI I am a Naval Architect and was professor at University of Michigan for 11 years after a long career in shipyards and design offices. I started off serving a 5 year apprenticeship as a shipwright at H M Dockyard Rosyth, Scotland 1950-55.
I also invented the Shipbuilders Degree at Edmonds Lodge #165.
WB Tom, I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at Cameron's comment. Sorry about the confusion! I think your idea is a solid one.
While I am not tuned in to sailing, I have other interests (Motorcycles being one of them), I have TONS of respect for those who sail for a hobby. It's a real art to negotiate waterways in the manner of our forefathers.
I think Masonry is about to undergo a restructuring, brought on by changing social structures, diminishing memberships and resources and the impact of electronic media. Smaller Lodges are, I feel a good thing, but to survive they will need to be composed of men who are closely bonded and committed to the Lodge’s survival. This is hard to do with a small group using the ‘department store’ model of interests. Smaller topically focused Lodges may be the way forward, Lodges that are based around a similar interest beyond Masonry.
Clubs would be a good transition to a new model. A Masonic club, let’s say focused on fishing. Masons sharing the experience of fishing, in the context of being Masons. The shared interest would provide fellowship opportunities that would nicely balance the dry business meetings. That shared interest could even mitigate some of the stresses common in Lodge, that can become problematic when there are no distractions.
Social media and the internet would make it easy to find such groups. Eventually these clubs could evolve into lodges. Its really that simple.
I agree with you about the benefit of increased quality fellowship. I know that in a lot of our Lodges fellowship can be lacking, but it is one of the most important aspects of our Fraternity, and anything that can be done to improve it is positive.
I also agree that Clubs could and in some cases would transition into Lodges.
It's my understanding that in the early days of our Jurisdiction that is how many Lodges were formed. A Mason or two would settle in some new area, and they would start a club because they didn't have enough men to form a Lodge. But as more and more existing Masons moved into an area, eventually enough would gather to form a Lodge U.D. That Lodge U.D. would then begin Making Masons, and in time would receive a Charter. I can certainly see that happening again, but around interests instead of location.
I remember a sign up list at an Annual Grand Lodge session for ham radio licensed brothers to sign and list their call sign. I thought at the time that there might be an effort to form a "club" or at least a net to check in and have a round table discussion on one of the bands. I have not seen anything since. We have at least four that I know of here in District 12 who are licensed hams, men I regularly associate with and three of us are members of our local ham club.
I think that is more the solution personally, joining a club in the interest of choice. You ability to find more men of like minded interests, and also, you can quietly champion the fraternity with others outside of our craft. Might even snag a man or two to ask to join. Nothing is better for our fraternity than having members be community involved.
This might be nuts. Please tell me if I'm nuts, but what about a Masonic Club that allowed non-Masons to be a part of it?
In other words, a group of Masons set up a 'Fishing Club.' But they don't restrict participation to Masons, they make it open to anyone with that interest in Fishing. That way they get participation from a broader spectrum of people, but those non Masons will know that its a Masonic Club, and some percentage, if it is fun, and if they come to see that they want to hang out more with the Masonic members would seek to become Masons.
I don't think that is too far off the historical model, where I presume the non Masons in some newly settled area would have gotten to hang around with the Masonic Club, until such time that the Club became a Lodge U.D. and then had guys to Initiate.
In any event, that's just a thought I had, and I would value any feedback you might have on it.
I know of at least 2 Masonic Clubs in Washington; the Sons of Hiram Riding Club with several chapters and the Goose and Gridiron #0 that meets in Auburn, WA.
The SOHRC requested and received "official approval" from the then Grand Master to use the Square and Compasses as part of it's logo and it was founded on and continues to do their best, at least in the recent past, to maintain the strict "Riding Club" mentality and not only encourage true Masonic tennents, but also to down-play the "1% MC" rationale that many riders seem to want to foster. That was some of the issues that caused bad PR for the Widows Sons and we've had WS members switch and join SOHRC as it better aligns with their understanding of FreeMasonry.
The resolution that I presented at the Washington Annual Communication was intended to offer a path for "official recognition" if a Club chose to do so. However, it was ruled out of order before it was even allowed to be considered by the memberhip as "the idea of Clubs is not align with the Landmarks of Freemasonry".
One of my thoughts of creating the resolution and allowing a formalized path for recognition, was to provide a pathway for my other resolution that was ruled out of order regarding Lodge Proficiency, or the inspection of a Lodge's ability to maintain their Charter. If that Lodge Proficiency resolution were in place, then the Masonic Clubs resolution could provide a tiered step down for a Lodge that wasn't able to maintain it's proficiency and still wanted to stay 'together' as a Club. They wouldn't hold a Charter and so would not be allowed to "make Masons" however they could do almost everything else a Lodge can do, except that.
The Lodge Charter and dispensation process is clear, however the perpetual authorization of a Lodge to 'conduct it' s work' should be reviewed on a regular basis. The idea of formally recognized Clubs would allow a group of Masons that gather, the opportunity to 'upgrade' to a Lodge through the Charter process and also allow a gentle step down for a Lodge that doesn't meet proficiency. As the Charter was forfeited and not arrested, there is a path for renewal and if the Lodge becomes a Club and that Club renews and wants to re-establish itself as a Lodge, it should be allowed to renew it's Charter, or apply for a new Charter if the Club was not associated with a Lodge previously. Let the flogging begin! :)
Hey, I'm part of the Emeth club. To me, this is a great Madonic experience. I love to read and learn new things as well as share what I have learned along the way. I've learned far more about Masonry, on my own with reading, than I have even come close to in a lodge. A big eye opener for me was when I was enrolled in Shawn Eyers online class. From there I started my travels reading more old Masonic Manuscripts. The history is so fascinating, i became a little upset that the lodges i had attended never even mentioned these before. I waited patiently for years that someone along the way would explain things too me, and reveal the secrets. This never happened. Like they say, if you ever want to keep a secret, write it in a book.
I wish Square Clubs were more common. We had some that were3 company specific back in the day (WWI era and slightly later). I myself run a "Downtown Square Club" started by Grand Master Williamson some years back, and we get Brothers from both jurisdictions (mainstream and Prince Hall).
After my discharge from the Air Force in 1974, I went to work for General Dynamics (Stromberg-Carlson Div.) My manager noticed my Masonic ring and invited my to the company's next Square Club meeting. The Square Club had monthly meetings after work, and two cookouts during summer. It was a great way to meet other employees (men only). In my group of forty-eight engineers there was only one women engineer (the glass ceiling was still bulletproof). The company began shutting down operations about a year later, ending the Square Club due to layoffs. It would be against the law to organize a Square Club today given that women employees wouldn't qualify for membership. And states like Mississippi, Arkansas, South Carolina and West Virginia would have a problem as their respective Grand Lodges do not recognize Prince Hall freemasons.
Thank you for this historical perspective. It caused me to reflect on our Legislature, where I worked for most of my career. Long ago, if it had such a club, it would have included virtually all of the elected members (The Legislature didn't have much in the way of staff to speak of back then.) If something were to be tried now there would be three or four of us sitting around looking at each other. Times have certainly changed.
Isn't the widows sons considered a masonic club?
The Widows Sons is the fastest growing association of Master Masons in the world! For the jurisdictions that view motorcyclists as most people view them in this day & age, they have thrived and greatly added to the Masonic experience. For those that view it with the 1950’s mentality it has been a battle. With the sheer costs of owning a motorcycle these days, motorcyclists are made up of professionals, business owners, managers, and leaders of our society. The very persons masonry looks for, “good men” who we make better! Becoming a Widows Son enhanced my experience in Masonry, I met more Masons and made many men masons thru being a WS. Unfortunately, I also experienced some bigotry, and negativity from some of the “old guard” who still equate motorcycle riders to outlaws & criminals but I have tried to stay clear of them! I changed jurisdictions to a more progressive, positive, growing jurisdiction that focuses on the inner man and not the external appearance. I can attend lodge in North Dakota with my Harley parked outside the lodge or my pickup, or Buick and be greeted with a smile and a grip! I’m proud to be a Mason, and a Widows Son! For those who understand what the Widows Sons really are, a “glee club” promoting Freemasons world wide! We need more groups like the Widows Sons, snowmobile enthusiasts, golfers, fishermen, car guys, even a Masonic gun club! “Like minded men” who share the same hobbies expands the bond of friendship! This expansion will bring in quality people and dispel the myth that Masons are a bunch of old guys that go to meetings, and bring in younger men! The Old Guard has to realize they are members of the Masonic Order, not “Owners”!
I haven't seen any negativity from anyone towards the WS, in fact the WS does a pretty good job getting the grand lodge to support them, which makes things a lot easier for them to be accepted here in Washington. I'm not a member, but I do ride, and have never experienced any negativity towards it.
My only quibble with the WS, and this might just be the particular person I was dealing with, was the vibe I got that it was more copying a 1% club than a masonic group. As I said, that might have been because of the local chapter president, who has since been removed from office and the chapter. Unfortunately they moved the chapter and it's no longer convenient to attend any meetings anyway, so it's sort of a moot point now.
Not all jurisdictions are favorable to anything motorcyclists related. I took a demit from my mother lodge and removed myself from the control of the Grand Lodge of Manitoba after being a member for over 30 years and retained my membership in the adjoining State of North Dakota. When I joined Freemasonry I was a motorcycle enthusiast (not an outlaw), and I certainly was never told masonry & motorcycling was not compatible. I love the craft and have the utmost respect for the Fraternity, I still visit some lodges in Manitoba, but as a guest. Unfortunately the Grand Lodge under the direction of some individuals made the experience unacceptable to me so I’ve left. I have made some great life long fraternal friendships and do not regret my time spent in Lodge. I realize that the members are human, and unfortunately the power of position can go to some peoples heads. I was a DDGM, I didn’t rule my district I served it. Eventually things will level out & I may rejoin a lodge in Manitoba but I will remain a Mason as long as I tread this earth!
I'm certainly glad you were able to find a proper home at least.
With all due respect and i mean this in the most loving way possible. Here were my observations this year. In NC we have a motorcycle group called "Knights of Solomon". Another motorcycle club was denied by our Grandmaster at one of our annual communications after the grand master ordered it members to renounce the group following a chapter trying to form outside of due process in NC and SC. They were also operating at the time in SC with its recognition. The Chapter president refused and effectively told the Grand master where to stick it in more vulgar terms. He and his group were all expelled from freemasonry. Earlier this year, I traveled to Tenn and was surprised by what I heard Widows sons speaking of. I overheard an initiate speaking of a "branding ceremony", and even though the larger group was wearing coat and tie, WS all wore their patches and jackets. They parked separate, they ate separate to the group, they acted differently. I have to say, Ill trust that people think that these clubs are masonic, while the brothers are members of the fraternal order, the behavior seems foreign and even contradictory in my humble opinion. One had a nearly nude woman on its badge as a group logo. The president of the chapter had Psycho tattooed on his neck. Several of the patches worn were vulgar to say the least. All I could think was, this represents freemasonry to the public, this represents me. Vulgarity, Branding ceremonies, and hazing. I say, tread carefully be certain that we don't delude further our core mission and tenants.
Your enthusiasm for the Widow's Sons is infectious!
WS is extremely active in my Jurisdiction, and I've not encountered much in the way of negativity towards it. I did hear one complaint, from one elderly Brother, but I think that's the only thing negative I've ever heard, and as I recall, the other members of the Lodge jumped to the defense of the WS.
While not a rider myself, the WS seems like a great group to me, and certainly something I would be interested in if I was.
I think you are right, we do need groups like the WS for a broad range of interests.
I don't know to be honest. I guess I just always assumed we considered it a Concordant Body. But I base that on zero actual knowledge.
I would be interested in a SAILING Club!
If you do join such a club, I could build your sailboat for you! I've become a Master Shipbuilder, and I offer a superb Warranty on my work. Fully Guaranteed for Ten Feet, or Ten Minutes, whichever comes sooner.
🤣
Bro. Clayton,
I am 88 and do not want to OWN a sailing yacht; that's why I like idea of club so I could sail with someone who has one.
FYI I am a Naval Architect and was professor at University of Michigan for 11 years after a long career in shipyards and design offices. I started off serving a 5 year apprenticeship as a shipwright at H M Dockyard Rosyth, Scotland 1950-55.
I also invented the Shipbuilders Degree at Edmonds Lodge #165.
Hope we meet some time in near future
Tom
WB Tom, I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at Cameron's comment. Sorry about the confusion! I think your idea is a solid one.
While I am not tuned in to sailing, I have other interests (Motorcycles being one of them), I have TONS of respect for those who sail for a hobby. It's a real art to negotiate waterways in the manner of our forefathers.
I think Masonry is about to undergo a restructuring, brought on by changing social structures, diminishing memberships and resources and the impact of electronic media. Smaller Lodges are, I feel a good thing, but to survive they will need to be composed of men who are closely bonded and committed to the Lodge’s survival. This is hard to do with a small group using the ‘department store’ model of interests. Smaller topically focused Lodges may be the way forward, Lodges that are based around a similar interest beyond Masonry.
Clubs would be a good transition to a new model. A Masonic club, let’s say focused on fishing. Masons sharing the experience of fishing, in the context of being Masons. The shared interest would provide fellowship opportunities that would nicely balance the dry business meetings. That shared interest could even mitigate some of the stresses common in Lodge, that can become problematic when there are no distractions.
Social media and the internet would make it easy to find such groups. Eventually these clubs could evolve into lodges. Its really that simple.
I agree with you about the benefit of increased quality fellowship. I know that in a lot of our Lodges fellowship can be lacking, but it is one of the most important aspects of our Fraternity, and anything that can be done to improve it is positive.
I also agree that Clubs could and in some cases would transition into Lodges.
It's my understanding that in the early days of our Jurisdiction that is how many Lodges were formed. A Mason or two would settle in some new area, and they would start a club because they didn't have enough men to form a Lodge. But as more and more existing Masons moved into an area, eventually enough would gather to form a Lodge U.D. That Lodge U.D. would then begin Making Masons, and in time would receive a Charter. I can certainly see that happening again, but around interests instead of location.
I remember a sign up list at an Annual Grand Lodge session for ham radio licensed brothers to sign and list their call sign. I thought at the time that there might be an effort to form a "club" or at least a net to check in and have a round table discussion on one of the bands. I have not seen anything since. We have at least four that I know of here in District 12 who are licensed hams, men I regularly associate with and three of us are members of our local ham club.
I think that is more the solution personally, joining a club in the interest of choice. You ability to find more men of like minded interests, and also, you can quietly champion the fraternity with others outside of our craft. Might even snag a man or two to ask to join. Nothing is better for our fraternity than having members be community involved.
This might be nuts. Please tell me if I'm nuts, but what about a Masonic Club that allowed non-Masons to be a part of it?
In other words, a group of Masons set up a 'Fishing Club.' But they don't restrict participation to Masons, they make it open to anyone with that interest in Fishing. That way they get participation from a broader spectrum of people, but those non Masons will know that its a Masonic Club, and some percentage, if it is fun, and if they come to see that they want to hang out more with the Masonic members would seek to become Masons.
I don't think that is too far off the historical model, where I presume the non Masons in some newly settled area would have gotten to hang around with the Masonic Club, until such time that the Club became a Lodge U.D. and then had guys to Initiate.
In any event, that's just a thought I had, and I would value any feedback you might have on it.
Perhaps that effort could be re-started at a future Annual Communication?
I know of at least 2 Masonic Clubs in Washington; the Sons of Hiram Riding Club with several chapters and the Goose and Gridiron #0 that meets in Auburn, WA.
The SOHRC requested and received "official approval" from the then Grand Master to use the Square and Compasses as part of it's logo and it was founded on and continues to do their best, at least in the recent past, to maintain the strict "Riding Club" mentality and not only encourage true Masonic tennents, but also to down-play the "1% MC" rationale that many riders seem to want to foster. That was some of the issues that caused bad PR for the Widows Sons and we've had WS members switch and join SOHRC as it better aligns with their understanding of FreeMasonry.
The resolution that I presented at the Washington Annual Communication was intended to offer a path for "official recognition" if a Club chose to do so. However, it was ruled out of order before it was even allowed to be considered by the memberhip as "the idea of Clubs is not align with the Landmarks of Freemasonry".
One of my thoughts of creating the resolution and allowing a formalized path for recognition, was to provide a pathway for my other resolution that was ruled out of order regarding Lodge Proficiency, or the inspection of a Lodge's ability to maintain their Charter. If that Lodge Proficiency resolution were in place, then the Masonic Clubs resolution could provide a tiered step down for a Lodge that wasn't able to maintain it's proficiency and still wanted to stay 'together' as a Club. They wouldn't hold a Charter and so would not be allowed to "make Masons" however they could do almost everything else a Lodge can do, except that.
The Lodge Charter and dispensation process is clear, however the perpetual authorization of a Lodge to 'conduct it' s work' should be reviewed on a regular basis. The idea of formally recognized Clubs would allow a group of Masons that gather, the opportunity to 'upgrade' to a Lodge through the Charter process and also allow a gentle step down for a Lodge that doesn't meet proficiency. As the Charter was forfeited and not arrested, there is a path for renewal and if the Lodge becomes a Club and that Club renews and wants to re-establish itself as a Lodge, it should be allowed to renew it's Charter, or apply for a new Charter if the Club was not associated with a Lodge previously. Let the flogging begin! :)
Hey, I'm part of the Emeth club. To me, this is a great Madonic experience. I love to read and learn new things as well as share what I have learned along the way. I've learned far more about Masonry, on my own with reading, than I have even come close to in a lodge. A big eye opener for me was when I was enrolled in Shawn Eyers online class. From there I started my travels reading more old Masonic Manuscripts. The history is so fascinating, i became a little upset that the lodges i had attended never even mentioned these before. I waited patiently for years that someone along the way would explain things too me, and reveal the secrets. This never happened. Like they say, if you ever want to keep a secret, write it in a book.
I wish Square Clubs were more common. We had some that were3 company specific back in the day (WWI era and slightly later). I myself run a "Downtown Square Club" started by Grand Master Williamson some years back, and we get Brothers from both jurisdictions (mainstream and Prince Hall).