Think before you speak! Logic and rhetoric. It is interesting how the trivium is almost universally represented as grammar, logic, rhetoric. (Read/Think/Speak) ... Almost universally.
I don't know if it's extreme ignorance on Canadian government behalf or its officials just truly replacing truth with deception. There are many instances that could be brought up with Trudeau and Zelensky being people who bring shame and dishonor to thier citizens. But I don't want to get too political here. Perhaps people believe in the hypocrisy they sell or afraid of go against the 'ruler.' When it comes to seeking the truth and taking the allegory of Plato's Cave. A lot of our 'rulers' are the ones casting shadows on the wall and telling us that's reality.
Seems that two factors are were at play: 1) believing what you want to believe, and 2) failure to embrace history. As the Canadian Parliament illustrated, that's a tough combination. However, I do give them credit for publicly apologizing.
In our divided society that combination confronts us every day, and apologies are nearly non-existent. That's a tough combination.
Sep 25, 2023·edited Sep 25, 2023Liked by Cameron M. Bailey
The history of the region of the Ukraine is almost as troublesome as the middle east. My family (germans) moved to the odessa region during the reign of catherine the great. The germans were well known for their farming, and russia was suffering from famines. Catherine the great offered homestead land for free to any germans that moved there to farm. The only condition the germans insisted on was a promise not to be drafted into the army, which was agreed to. Also keep in mind, Catherine the Great was herself german.
Of course, like any empire, they reneged on that promise later. My great grandparents moved to the US in the late 1800s as they could see the clouds of war on the horizon.
After WW2, and the USSR took over the area, one of the first things they did was evict the germans, mainly by moving them to siberia and the gulags. I imagine that at least some of my relatives met this fate.
So, that's how you could find ukrainians fighting against the russians during WW2.
Now, I'm not going to defend anyone, just make some conclusions based on several bits of evidence and personal knowledge. First, not all germans were nazis. Only about 10% of the german population were card carrying nazis. The military was more filled with patriots much like any other army, fighting for the fatherland. Nazi was a political party.
Second, while this gentleman that was featured in the article was probably a german born ukrainian, I don't know if you could accurately call him a nazi. Maybe he was? Maybe not. Was he conscripted into the military as the germans rolled through the area? Probably.
So, the motivations of this person as well as the unit he served in were probably more of fighting against the government that was oppressing them than being part of the ideologue of the nazi party.
Also keep in mind that the germans were forcibly conscripting non germans late in the war simply because of the second front, and there were many non germans defending the atlantic wall against their will.
My point is, that just as you mention in the post that nothing is ever black and white, there are probably very much more layers to this whole story. Was he just as the news article portrayed him, a nazi fighting against our allies in WW2? Probably, but I suspect it was more than that. It doesn't excuse what Canada did, that was incredibly stupid, if just for the optics of it all.
Have to add, thus weekend I watched a documentary on convicting Germans on war crimes. It was really thought provoking. If someone kills thousands of people, including unarmed women and kids, should they be charged? I believe so, but again they were all just following orders. Some Germain soldiers were threatened or killed if they refused to follow orders from its government. It's easy for me to say I would take the high road, but I can understand the psychology. The other question this documentary posed was how the militart leaders were let off the hook because they didn't actually do the killings. Makes you compare that to modern times. This is a great topic to ponder. If a ruthless dictator took over, where would we stand? Very much part of what I wrote on the first Grandmaster of Free-Masons. https://truthprevails.life/topics/f/nimrod-the-first-grand-master-of-free-masonry#af04c0a1-9c42-4c63-a2f6-98a8744c60e4
Being blinded by what you think or have been told is true is a real human failing. In my work I have instituted a 'red team' approach several times. Once a decision is made on what seems an obvious choice, I will assemble a team or have an individual take the opposite position, and make as thoughtful argument to the contrary as possible. It's not a perfect solution, but it helps.
Sep 28, 2023·edited Sep 28, 2023Liked by Cameron M. Bailey
Not to defend anybody who is or was a nazi...
Over there, in Eastern Europe (where I am from) things are always more complicated than the usual black and white simplification.
Both Romania and Hungary, for example, entered WWII as allies of the Third Reich (Hitler's third empire). And they did fight against the Russian/Soviets from the very first day of the war! The Hungarian authorities willingly collaborated with the nazis and swiftly transported hundreds of thousands of Jews to the concentration camps. Romania took over what is today Moldavia and Southern Ukraine, and they did the "job" themselves: killed the Jews "in loco" without sending them away. Till now it is 1:1.
And now comes the twist: Romania changed allegiance in August 1944, and started to fight with the Soviets against the nazis. Hungary tried the same in October 1944, but their attempt failed (their homegrown nazi-type party took over the country by a putsch), forcing the army to fight till the end on the wrong side.
After the war, Romania was listed among the victors, rewarded with territories etc. Hungary was the pariah.
QUESTION: if you find today an old veteran that was in the army all those years... was he a good guy or a bad guy?
P.S. Despite the fact the the Western intelligentsia tends to bo more forgiving toward the atrocities of Stalin's bolsheviks, the generations that experienced both the German nazi system and the Soviet bolshevik dictatorship - don't see any difference between them.
P.P.S. Your assumption regarding Canadian MP’s being reasonably bright people... is not accurate :)
Think before you speak! Logic and rhetoric. It is interesting how the trivium is almost universally represented as grammar, logic, rhetoric. (Read/Think/Speak) ... Almost universally.
I don't know if it's extreme ignorance on Canadian government behalf or its officials just truly replacing truth with deception. There are many instances that could be brought up with Trudeau and Zelensky being people who bring shame and dishonor to thier citizens. But I don't want to get too political here. Perhaps people believe in the hypocrisy they sell or afraid of go against the 'ruler.' When it comes to seeking the truth and taking the allegory of Plato's Cave. A lot of our 'rulers' are the ones casting shadows on the wall and telling us that's reality.
Seems that two factors are were at play: 1) believing what you want to believe, and 2) failure to embrace history. As the Canadian Parliament illustrated, that's a tough combination. However, I do give them credit for publicly apologizing.
In our divided society that combination confronts us every day, and apologies are nearly non-existent. That's a tough combination.
The history of the region of the Ukraine is almost as troublesome as the middle east. My family (germans) moved to the odessa region during the reign of catherine the great. The germans were well known for their farming, and russia was suffering from famines. Catherine the great offered homestead land for free to any germans that moved there to farm. The only condition the germans insisted on was a promise not to be drafted into the army, which was agreed to. Also keep in mind, Catherine the Great was herself german.
Of course, like any empire, they reneged on that promise later. My great grandparents moved to the US in the late 1800s as they could see the clouds of war on the horizon.
After WW2, and the USSR took over the area, one of the first things they did was evict the germans, mainly by moving them to siberia and the gulags. I imagine that at least some of my relatives met this fate.
So, that's how you could find ukrainians fighting against the russians during WW2.
Now, I'm not going to defend anyone, just make some conclusions based on several bits of evidence and personal knowledge. First, not all germans were nazis. Only about 10% of the german population were card carrying nazis. The military was more filled with patriots much like any other army, fighting for the fatherland. Nazi was a political party.
Second, while this gentleman that was featured in the article was probably a german born ukrainian, I don't know if you could accurately call him a nazi. Maybe he was? Maybe not. Was he conscripted into the military as the germans rolled through the area? Probably.
So, the motivations of this person as well as the unit he served in were probably more of fighting against the government that was oppressing them than being part of the ideologue of the nazi party.
Also keep in mind that the germans were forcibly conscripting non germans late in the war simply because of the second front, and there were many non germans defending the atlantic wall against their will.
My point is, that just as you mention in the post that nothing is ever black and white, there are probably very much more layers to this whole story. Was he just as the news article portrayed him, a nazi fighting against our allies in WW2? Probably, but I suspect it was more than that. It doesn't excuse what Canada did, that was incredibly stupid, if just for the optics of it all.
For further reading, here is a wiki article link describing the germans living in the ukraine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Germans#:~:text=History,-See%20also%3A%20Crimean&text=Germans%20began%20settling%20in%20southern,part%20of%20the%20Russian%20Empire
It's pretty interesting. I was also able to find my great uncle in the database, as well as others within my family who immigrated to South Dakota.
Have to add, thus weekend I watched a documentary on convicting Germans on war crimes. It was really thought provoking. If someone kills thousands of people, including unarmed women and kids, should they be charged? I believe so, but again they were all just following orders. Some Germain soldiers were threatened or killed if they refused to follow orders from its government. It's easy for me to say I would take the high road, but I can understand the psychology. The other question this documentary posed was how the militart leaders were let off the hook because they didn't actually do the killings. Makes you compare that to modern times. This is a great topic to ponder. If a ruthless dictator took over, where would we stand? Very much part of what I wrote on the first Grandmaster of Free-Masons. https://truthprevails.life/topics/f/nimrod-the-first-grand-master-of-free-masonry#af04c0a1-9c42-4c63-a2f6-98a8744c60e4
Being blinded by what you think or have been told is true is a real human failing. In my work I have instituted a 'red team' approach several times. Once a decision is made on what seems an obvious choice, I will assemble a team or have an individual take the opposite position, and make as thoughtful argument to the contrary as possible. It's not a perfect solution, but it helps.
Back to the specific incident, the Speaker has resigned:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/26/anthony-rota-canada-resigns-nazi-parliament
Well said. Self-brainwashing seems like an epidemic these days.
It does, and a lot of people seem to be perfectly OK with that. Strange.
Not to defend anybody who is or was a nazi...
Over there, in Eastern Europe (where I am from) things are always more complicated than the usual black and white simplification.
Both Romania and Hungary, for example, entered WWII as allies of the Third Reich (Hitler's third empire). And they did fight against the Russian/Soviets from the very first day of the war! The Hungarian authorities willingly collaborated with the nazis and swiftly transported hundreds of thousands of Jews to the concentration camps. Romania took over what is today Moldavia and Southern Ukraine, and they did the "job" themselves: killed the Jews "in loco" without sending them away. Till now it is 1:1.
And now comes the twist: Romania changed allegiance in August 1944, and started to fight with the Soviets against the nazis. Hungary tried the same in October 1944, but their attempt failed (their homegrown nazi-type party took over the country by a putsch), forcing the army to fight till the end on the wrong side.
After the war, Romania was listed among the victors, rewarded with territories etc. Hungary was the pariah.
QUESTION: if you find today an old veteran that was in the army all those years... was he a good guy or a bad guy?
P.S. Despite the fact the the Western intelligentsia tends to bo more forgiving toward the atrocities of Stalin's bolsheviks, the generations that experienced both the German nazi system and the Soviet bolshevik dictatorship - don't see any difference between them.
P.P.S. Your assumption regarding Canadian MP’s being reasonably bright people... is not accurate :)
The fallout continues:
https://www.thefp.com/p/justin-trudeau-self-immolation