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Bill Thayer's avatar

Well since it is just after 3am after my Stated meeting last night and me back to recovering from the back injury.....if that ever happens.

All I will say is "All of the Above" and that NO we/ I will not attain perfect Light

Goodnight MW

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

I'm sorry to hear about your back. I hope that you get to feeling better very soon!

I think I agree with you, we won't attain perfect Light in this world, for we are imperfect beings.

Bill Thayer's avatar

Thank you MW

It has been making me lay on my back since May 20th and I am not very happy about not making the drive to Wenatchee and I had made my reservation at the Coast hotel the first week of April so I had been thinking about it that long and I know I will never be able to do it again.......BUT I will see you at #107 for that BBQ.......and wouldn't mind seeing you at #6 since I am the current WM.....oh and I still have plenty of those Forget Me Nots here at my my own personal Port Ludlow National Park too.....never tried collecting the seeds since they seem to plant themselves all over the 5 acres all by themselves.

Have a perfect weekend MW

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

Mrs. Bailey and I do try to make it up to the north Peninsula a time or two a year, we do love it there, so perhaps I will be able to visit you at Port Townsend Lodge. I'm not sure though, we haven't yet made many summer plans. Beyond a trip to Alaska.

Jim Hamlin's avatar

For me the meaning of Light has changed, from knowledge to wisdom. That wisdom which was coexistent with the Creator at creation. Our duty to the initiate is not just to impart knowledge, but to help him gain wisdom. Knowledge + Experience = Wisdom. While we will not attain the perfect wisdom that is Devine, our goal should be to seek it.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

In my own personal experience, I'm not sure I can describe it well, but I felt a pretty profound break during my Initiation from life pre-Initiation. Something old had fallen away, something new was coming. If that makes any sense.

And now, looking back over the course of years, I can see that the course of my life did change at that point. Not entirely, but in some important aspects.

Warren Baxter's avatar

The "Light" can get metaphored to death in various modern esoteric and philosopical interpretations. In its earlier conveyance "becoming" light was the goal of life, which is a little more defined by Theosis.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

Thank you for this Brother. Certainly the ladder in our ritual could be seen to point to theosis. A new term for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology)

I don't see the difference between the theosis of the East, and the Apotheosis of the West, but now you've send me on a quest to learn it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotheosis

Of course our most famous of American Freemason, George Washington is shown ascending bodily to heaven in our nation's Capitol. In the work entitled The Apotheosis Of Washington:

https://www.aoc.gov/explore-capitol-campus/art/apotheosis-washington

Interesting stuff!

Warren Baxter's avatar

💯! In some interpretations, the ladder can be viewed as the ascension to the ogdoad. Out of darkness into the light, as the pleroma of Light

Mike Priddy's avatar

I used to think that the Light was God, or it was wisdom, or maybe knowledge. But with more experience, I have come to realize, at least for me, that receiving the Light is to be transformed so that in essence your mind/spirit/soul has the power to see beyond surface appearances to deeper meanings. In essence you receive the 'Light so that you can see'. Once you can see, everything becomes obvious. I had a minor epiphany at a Buddhist retreat once, and that influenced my thinking. All we did was meditate. We meditated HARD; when we woke, when we ate, when we worked. We did not speak and we did everything in a mindful state. There was no esoteric talk, no spiritual book review, just meditation. Then boom. Something in me changed and I had my epiphany. I won't go into what it was, but it was a change in me, and that changed allowed me to see some aspects of reality differently. I don't mean with a different perspective, I don't mean with new knowledge. I SAW DIFFERENTLY. Since then the 'Light' I received from that experience, illuminated the entirety of reality for me, and I have not been the same. I don't believe our degrees necessarily confer that light, BUT I believe that they point the way to that experience. I seem to remember Pike saying something to that effect. It's MY opinion that the degrees of Freemasonry are a map to enlightenment, showing first the method, and then pointing us toward to places where we can get specific information. That is the true secret of our Craft, and it is kept perfectly, because you have to walk that path to learn it.

Wilson Gonzalez's avatar

You are right Brother. The degrees does not give Light, they are more of a guide, breadcrumbs that point the way.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

>>>That is the true secret of our Craft, and it is kept perfectly, because you have to walk that path >>>to learn it.

I am in complete agreement with you that the actual Secrets of Freemasonry are things that must be experienced because they are beyond the ability to teach. And on a more fundamental level, I agree that these Secrets exist. Sometimes we do encounter Masons who claim that there are no Secrets in Masonry beyond the 'grips, signs, and words' I always figure that those who say such things just don't understand what Freemasonry is, or don't understand it yet.

But, all of this is also something that can cause harm to the Craft. If Freemasonry is presented as a way of gaining Secret knowledge, and then no real Secrets are imparted in the Degrees, a man can become disillusioned. Because of that I think we serve Freemasonry, and candidates well if we take the time to explain to them that Freemasonry does not openly reveal its Secrets, a man must discover them through is own effort.

Mike Priddy's avatar

I could not agree more. Currently there are many who claim to know the 'secrets', and who use that to aggrandize themselves. There are those who say there are no secrets, probably because, like you said, after being initiated were presented no secrets. It's my opinion we need to change the narrative. In some of the AASR work, Pike says that the secrets of the degrees must be pursued by the initiate to be learned. I think we need to teach that fact more globally, and more often. As I know you MWB have an interest in the Tarot, I know you have likely come across the idea that the Tarot taken in its entirety is actually a grimoire that guides the student to gnosis and reveals arcane knowledge. Our degrees, in my opinion, teach the method of initiation, rather than initiate. In this forum I can't go into detail, but I believe the steps of true imitation are 1. Stasis. 2. Crisis. 3. Revelation. 4. Integration. These steps are explicit in our initiation process. In the three blue lodge degrees we see this process repeated three time, each with increasing complexity, indicating that the process of initiation is ongoing. Those four steps are the skeleton around which any initiation must be built. As Masons who have experienced initiation in this sense, it probably falls to us to mentor those seeking illumination in the process and to 'illuminate' this secret to them at the appropriate time and in the appropriate place. For that to be fruitful, I think the ambient culture in the Craft may need to be altered somewhat.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

>>>It's my opinion we need to change the narrative. In some of the AASR work, Pike >>>says that the secrets of the degrees must be pursued by the initiate to be learned.

I think this is exactly right. "The key unlocks the entrance of the shrine in the East, but as yet you stand merely at its threshold and are not prepared to pass through." -Secret Master. The Degree makes it pretty darn clear that the SR is giving the Initiate the tools he can use for discovery, but that he himself must do the work of discovery.

I'm not sure how well I ever explain it, but I have talked a couple of times about Tarot to Lodges, and tried to explain how the symbolism of Tarot illustrates many of the same concepts as Masonic symbolism. But I think that this crosses cultures and time. The truly ancient pyramids Teotihuacan are covered with symbolism illustrating these concepts yet again. Somehow this knowledge comes to us across time and culture, from groups that had no seeming contact between them.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

Well, in a bit of 'Ai is going to get us all to believe untrue things as it generates its nonsense,' I just went to Google to make sure that I was spelling Teotihuacan correctly. At the top of the page was Google's Ai bit about the site. Declaring it Aztec in origin. Of course in reality it was already ancient by the time of the Aztecs.

Amazing to me that our tech companies seem to prefer to feed us Ai generated nonsense than really easily verifiable facts. But, I guess I shouldn't be surprised after the pizza recipe suggesting using glue to hold the toppings on.

Wilson Gonzalez's avatar

Light is getting the wisdom to achieve all of the above. Can we attain perfect Light? Yes, but not in this realm. Thats the symbolism of the traveling (troweling). To reach the Light in the East we have to travel thru the West first. Only by going down to the abyss (VITRIOL) is when we can start our way up thru the Tree of Life.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

You are correct I think. The analogy of Traveling, and of us being Traveling Men is much deeper than many might realize.

I think it can be thought that we fall into this realm (of our own choosing) travel to that place from whence we came, perhaps arrive, perhaps fall by the wayside and begin again. I'm very comfortable with that.

What I haven't yet become comfortable with is the question:

If we do arrive (as we surely must someday) do we remain in the place from whence we came, or do we return yet again? Perhaps it is unknowable, likely so.

Wilson Gonzalez's avatar

This is what I have learned.

There are 3 things:

1. Resurrection - coming back from the dead. Same body and same conciousness.

2. Reintegration - coming back like reincarnation but is not concious. The body die and the soul goes back to another body to keep learning.

3. Return - return is like reintegration but is concious. In this state you have achieve the re-ligare or like Christians would say eternal life. But in there you can choose to stay or to come back.

Hermes Trimegistus is said to have come back three times, hence the title "three times great" or "trimegistus".

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

I suppose that my own thoughts about these three have changed as I've grown and changed. I guess that my own ideas turn towards reintegration now. But of course as mortals on this sphere we can never truly know.

Thomas Lamb's avatar

MW Cameron,

I thought you were conferred the 4tth Degree at Seattle Scottish Rite on its own on a Saturday Morning?

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

No, I joined and received the required Degrees and one additional at Tacoma Scottish Rite. I've seen all the Degrees not performed in Tacoma down in Guthrie.

This was the first time I've seen an SR Degree performed outside of a Reunion context. It is quite a difference.

Daniel G Nye's avatar

If ‘light’ can be defined as ‘the awareness of the path/initiatory process’ then I think it is an adequate word. Light does not mean enlightenment or completeness. Going from darkness to light physically will mean you’re squinting your eyes until your irises adjust and the nerves stop humming. As a new initiate that parable is more than adequate to describe this process. Now that the light is on, I have to take time to adjust and figure out what I am looking at.

Idealism vs reality. The ultimate curse of speculation and logical deduction.

Nothing obscures more than light. Such as how the sun obscures the stars and insulates us from cosmic radiation. Even better try reading this text when your screen is catching the glare of the sun.

Light can create illusion. Clarifying, light is what makes illusions possible, by certain patterns and geometry (😉) which can lead to the mind being lead astray through apophenia and pareidolia. Best understood through Plato’s Cave.

Isaiah 45, 5-6 is perhaps my favorite line in the Old Testament. Mainly because it is a middle finger to neoplatonism, though the underlying hint to the necessity of polarity and understanding that deity is above the rationale of humanity.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

As I didn't go through the 4th Degree in the same manner that you did, I'm really curious, how did you find it? Valuable?

Daniel G Nye's avatar

Like the theme of my previous reply, the whole echo going through my head was, ‘how far does the rabbit hole go?’ I found joy in the struggle between being attentive and the my own inner dialogue.

Valuable? Always. I greatly value the time and effort that others offered for my sake. I valued the acceptance, and the welcome. I value the new information and challenge.

What I most valued was the ultimate question of what is coming next.

After thoughts, the event was noticeably shorter than blue lodge degrees. Though cursory is not a word I would use here. Information overload with a cliff hanger would be more adequate.

There is much I want to ask though I know this is not the format for those questions.

Once again, thank you for the consideration and participation I am all about reciprocation so I’ll due my best to pay it back.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

>>>I found joy in the struggle between being attentive and the my own inner dialogue.

I too have this experience. I received the Degrees of the York Rite about three years ago, and have started receiving the Degrees of the SRICF even more recently, and yeah, I find my mind going over them quite extensively as I'm going through them.

>>>After thoughts, the event was noticeably shorter than blue lodge degrees. Though >>>cursory is not a word I would use here. Information overload with a cliff hanger >>>would be more adequate.

My impression of the Scottish Rite Degrees, these I have held for a very long time, is that they give really good pointers about where to look to find light. But they explain very little. Leaving it to the Mason to seek out that which is referenced, and find his own understanding. Such as the references to the Qabalah in the Degree you received. It wasn't explained, but it was shown, so that the Mason knows that he will find value in its study.

Mike Priddy's avatar

MWB you touch on an interesting point, and one that has dominates my thoughts. The fact that structures, cultures even myth cross cultural and temporal boundaries without an obvious causal linkage. The easy answer, in my opinion, is a secret cabal that accounts for the similarities. I offer another theory. All those pyramids, myths, rituals, philosophies are simply quintessentially human, the nature creation of human beings, like bees making similar hives, birds making similar nests and beavers making similar dams with no one overseeing the transfer of knowledge. Humans being evolved to experience the noosphere as sentient beings construct ideas like bees construct hives. This might seem a dry and less romantic answer, and ergo less appealing to the mystically mindsed, but I would respectfully disagree. This is a wonder, filled with magic and hope. If we would dive into what is quintessentially human, spiritually, philosophical, architecturally, we might actually find our selves. When asked what religion I practice my recent answer has been this, " some day humans will colonize other planets, and sadly one day we will be no more. We will either become extinct to evolve into something else. The many centuries later another sentient race will find our ruins, and looking at a temple, they will know humans built it because it "exhibits quintessential human qualities of spirituality" Whatever that is, is my religion. There is some support for this concept in the new science of 'complex adaptive self organizing systems' as well as the old science of Jungian and Transpersonal psychology. I recognize this is likely a minority opinion, and that I can in to prove it in any satisfactory way.....yet.

Cameron M. Bailey's avatar

This makes a great deal of sense to me. I've never bought into the idea that there is some group of 'wise masters' hanging out on a mountain somewhere, directing humanity towards spiritual realization.

I think a view that the knowledge is inborn to us, much like the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong is inborn to us is much more plausible.