This is one of those times that reminds you or makes you think about or realize once in a while things happen for a reason.
Not just accidentally, even though some will say it just happened.
I have been reminded many times in my life when things happen that seem to have a purpose and even a test to see what you will do with the situation.
And you MW found a time where you can either help this young man with the answers and let him know he is ready to become an EA
You can go either way.
Then if you just continue on with your day you will later think about what happened and you will think about it and even wonder why you didn't say or do even more.
We tend to have things in our mind that we just can't stop thinking about and then feel like you have to do something about the situation.
Reminds me of decades ago when I was 19 years old and read a book called "Powers of Mind" by Adam Smith ( for some reason I never will forget the book or the authors name) and that was 44 years ago.
Reminds of us of why we have the Degrees which pretty much tells us if a new member considers it to be the right thing to do.
And all of this is why I just happen to be awake at 2am and read this and I think that I can't just go off to sleep without saying anything.
(and falling asleep has never been easy for me and I am trying to change my human clock so I can get up at 6am this saturday for the Outdoor Degree for a new member)
Similar to the term, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” I learned that when I was young, and I keep it in mind throughout my travels. It induces me to recognize all learning opportunities.
I guess I’ve always looked at this from the standpoint of the student, and there’s no problem with that – when you’re not learning, you’re dying, as one of my mentors told me – but you’re correct. The reverse is also true. Thank you!
I petitioned in my mid twenties after I recognized my mortality and the value of second hand experience.
The fundamental dividie between my generation and Masonry isn't the average age. It's the values. Millennials, predominantly, are hedonists, not stoics. They care not for the virtues. They may come around in the next decade, but they don't join religion either.
I'm one of those that thinks, after you've had your kids, before they move out. Before then, you're still struggling to raise children. That said, I usually tell people you need to wait until you have some disposable time in your life that you can dedicate.
MW, it would interesting to know why this young man felt he wasn’t old enough yet to petition. He certainly seems to have the maturity and wisdom. Speaking to nonage, the human brain doesn’t become fully developed until around the age of 25. This might be a good place to start. Much of Freemasonry involves a level of deeper thinking. Maybe that is why the ritual speaks of dotage and nonage. To seek the hidden mysteries one must be able to contemplate different ideas.
I didn't want to press him, so am unsure what makes him think that he isn't old enough. It does though sound as if the Lodge is ready to welcome him when he does decide that it is time.
I personally delayed joining until my late 30s because my impression was it was an elite organization that would require substantial time and monetary investment. Indeed, the good lodges do.
Thus, a man is nonage if he doesn't have disposable income, is not in control of his own schedule, or is not the head of his household. Just my opinion.
If you are scraping by(most college students or minimum wage workers), live in your parents spare bedroom(heck i know 50yo men in this category) . Or totally at the whim of another for your daily schedule (a private in the Army for example), then you are nonage.
“If you are scraping by (most college students or minimum wage workers),” Sometimes a person might be doing fairly well, but gets laid off and winds up finding employment in a lower wage bracket, which might very well be minimum wage. I had a neighbor who wound up in this situation, and she was in her late 50’s.
“live in your parents spare bedroom(heck I know 50yo men in this category)” Now I’ll be fair, what I’m going to say isn’t what you mean, but there are cases where a couple is old enough to where their children are grown up, that move their elderly parent(s) in with them, or in some cases, move back into the house one of the couple grew up in to take care of the parents who still live there, depending on the location and economics. Again, one of my neighbors (the one behind me this time.) You likely mean “haven’t moved out *yet*”, so this is a clarification.
“Or totally at the whim of another for your daily schedule (a private in the Army for example)” but also someone who had a decent job, but then switched to a job with significantly higher pay, but also has a rotating shift. Now they’re at the whim of their employer for their shift and schedule.
I think these cases bring up the question as to whether you can actually return to nonage.
Or that you have to be a small business owner or someone in a company who has enough seniority to have considerable flexibility with his schedule. While I won’t counter your stance that our organization has an elite factor to it, I know of many good people out there who would be an excellent fit for us who work swing shift jobs or are caretaking elderly relatives or similar things.
The age should be what is comfortable for the man. Isn't nonage another word for maturity? Wouldn't that maturity show during the investigative process and the Six Steps?
Seems the young man that thinks he needs to be older might be more mature than some of the younger men that have petitioned Lodges and we never see around any longer. Hopefully those come back later.
>>>Seems the young man that thinks he needs to be older might be more mature than some of the >>>younger men that have petitioned Lodges and we never see around any longer.
I have a hunch that this is very close to the truth.
I was having a conversation once with Brent Morris and he had a short hand of “men join masonry when they stop playing softball”. The implication was that when men have matured beyond the point of playing games and a more youthful lifestyle but are still looking for the camaraderie of other men they will turn to things like Masonry for the deeper male growing experience.
I know that was the case for me, I petitioned when I was 31, had stopped playing a lot of video games and beer league sports and was looking for something missing in my life, I got lucky with a lodge with other men in the same life stage who remain some of my closest and dearest friends and found that relational aspect that was missing.
A man is ready to become an entered apprentice when he reaches the point in his life when he is prepared to take the first step on the journey that is the answer to the simple question “what came you here to do?”. Until you are ready to do that you are still in your youthful nonage, but the age when you are ready to walk that path varies for each man. When I have interviewed candidates I often ask them what they like to do, what are their hobbies, where do they spend their free time to get an idea if they are ready to step forward.
I still play video games, and I am 62. I work full time, but I am very active in my lodge, my children have moved away, and I belong to the VFW, ABATE (motorcycle rights organization) Scottish Rite as well as my lodge. I find time to do all that and still play on my xbox. New season of Diablo III starts tonight.
“The implication was that when men have matured beyond the point of playing games and a more youthful lifestyle…” I still ride bicycles. Many people think bicycles are for kids, and they “mature” into cars and trucks. My father commuted to work on a bicycle for many years, and I still ride for the exercise. The same thing applies for those who are in softball leagues, particularly the senior leagues. They’re trying to stay in shape, with the hope of being still mobile when they get into their later years.
As for the video games and things like that, where does “Maturity” bring an end to the “games” and the start of “Hobbies?” Like WB Glen noted, as kids we played Super Mario Brothers, but now might be playing MMORPG games, where kids are battling it out against adults of all ages, even up into their 70’s. And some video games have proven to help cognitive function in seniors.
Here’s another way of looking at it. If we’re donning costumes and using props for a degree, are we “playing dress-up,” or are we impressing important lessons to our new members in a better way? And yes, that question had popped up among the older members in previous years, although in my area that talk has diminished significantly. While I (and most of us) agree that we need to move forward and improve ourselves, which means advancing in our maturity, we cannot forget the Child in us. That little immature kid that we were back several years ago was the kid that was learning, contemplating and accepting new lessons, new ideas, because we were innocent to the passions and prejudices that can clutter our adult minds.
"Nonage" is the period of immaturity or youth. In this country, we consider 18 to be the age of adulthood, because that's when a person is old enough to vote, according to the US Constitution. But, is that person really old enough, experienced enough to make wise decisions? I say that varies, depending on experience. A youngster from a hard-working farm family knows about responsibility, honesty, and back-breaking labor. One from an inner-city environment doesn't have that experience. I am mentoring a young man (27) who is honest, hard-working, and extremely eager to engage in all the things Masonry has to offer. Is there an ideal age to start on the Masonic path? When that man is ready, he will take that all-important first step with his left foot. The problem is that there is so much bad information about our Craft out there--such as "I thought you had to be asked to join." While we cannot recruit, we can attract. And it is up to us to *be* that attraction at all times in all ways. Just my thoughts...
This is one of those times that reminds you or makes you think about or realize once in a while things happen for a reason.
Not just accidentally, even though some will say it just happened.
I have been reminded many times in my life when things happen that seem to have a purpose and even a test to see what you will do with the situation.
And you MW found a time where you can either help this young man with the answers and let him know he is ready to become an EA
You can go either way.
Then if you just continue on with your day you will later think about what happened and you will think about it and even wonder why you didn't say or do even more.
We tend to have things in our mind that we just can't stop thinking about and then feel like you have to do something about the situation.
Reminds me of decades ago when I was 19 years old and read a book called "Powers of Mind" by Adam Smith ( for some reason I never will forget the book or the authors name) and that was 44 years ago.
Reminds of us of why we have the Degrees which pretty much tells us if a new member considers it to be the right thing to do.
And all of this is why I just happen to be awake at 2am and read this and I think that I can't just go off to sleep without saying anything.
(and falling asleep has never been easy for me and I am trying to change my human clock so I can get up at 6am this saturday for the Outdoor Degree for a new member)
Similar to the term, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.” I learned that when I was young, and I keep it in mind throughout my travels. It induces me to recognize all learning opportunities.
Sometimes “When the teacher is ready, the student will appear.”
I guess I’ve always looked at this from the standpoint of the student, and there’s no problem with that – when you’re not learning, you’re dying, as one of my mentors told me – but you’re correct. The reverse is also true. Thank you!
I petitioned in my mid twenties after I recognized my mortality and the value of second hand experience.
The fundamental dividie between my generation and Masonry isn't the average age. It's the values. Millennials, predominantly, are hedonists, not stoics. They care not for the virtues. They may come around in the next decade, but they don't join religion either.
I'm one of those that thinks, after you've had your kids, before they move out. Before then, you're still struggling to raise children. That said, I usually tell people you need to wait until you have some disposable time in your life that you can dedicate.
MW, it would interesting to know why this young man felt he wasn’t old enough yet to petition. He certainly seems to have the maturity and wisdom. Speaking to nonage, the human brain doesn’t become fully developed until around the age of 25. This might be a good place to start. Much of Freemasonry involves a level of deeper thinking. Maybe that is why the ritual speaks of dotage and nonage. To seek the hidden mysteries one must be able to contemplate different ideas.
I didn't want to press him, so am unsure what makes him think that he isn't old enough. It does though sound as if the Lodge is ready to welcome him when he does decide that it is time.
I personally delayed joining until my late 30s because my impression was it was an elite organization that would require substantial time and monetary investment. Indeed, the good lodges do.
Thus, a man is nonage if he doesn't have disposable income, is not in control of his own schedule, or is not the head of his household. Just my opinion.
If you are scraping by(most college students or minimum wage workers), live in your parents spare bedroom(heck i know 50yo men in this category) . Or totally at the whim of another for your daily schedule (a private in the Army for example), then you are nonage.
“If you are scraping by (most college students or minimum wage workers),” Sometimes a person might be doing fairly well, but gets laid off and winds up finding employment in a lower wage bracket, which might very well be minimum wage. I had a neighbor who wound up in this situation, and she was in her late 50’s.
“live in your parents spare bedroom(heck I know 50yo men in this category)” Now I’ll be fair, what I’m going to say isn’t what you mean, but there are cases where a couple is old enough to where their children are grown up, that move their elderly parent(s) in with them, or in some cases, move back into the house one of the couple grew up in to take care of the parents who still live there, depending on the location and economics. Again, one of my neighbors (the one behind me this time.) You likely mean “haven’t moved out *yet*”, so this is a clarification.
“Or totally at the whim of another for your daily schedule (a private in the Army for example)” but also someone who had a decent job, but then switched to a job with significantly higher pay, but also has a rotating shift. Now they’re at the whim of their employer for their shift and schedule.
I think these cases bring up the question as to whether you can actually return to nonage.
Or that you have to be a small business owner or someone in a company who has enough seniority to have considerable flexibility with his schedule. While I won’t counter your stance that our organization has an elite factor to it, I know of many good people out there who would be an excellent fit for us who work swing shift jobs or are caretaking elderly relatives or similar things.
Things that happen after initiation are different. But acceptance should be contingent upon fiscal, temporal, and encumbrance availability.
The age should be what is comfortable for the man. Isn't nonage another word for maturity? Wouldn't that maturity show during the investigative process and the Six Steps?
Seems the young man that thinks he needs to be older might be more mature than some of the younger men that have petitioned Lodges and we never see around any longer. Hopefully those come back later.
>>>Seems the young man that thinks he needs to be older might be more mature than some of the >>>younger men that have petitioned Lodges and we never see around any longer.
I have a hunch that this is very close to the truth.
I was having a conversation once with Brent Morris and he had a short hand of “men join masonry when they stop playing softball”. The implication was that when men have matured beyond the point of playing games and a more youthful lifestyle but are still looking for the camaraderie of other men they will turn to things like Masonry for the deeper male growing experience.
I know that was the case for me, I petitioned when I was 31, had stopped playing a lot of video games and beer league sports and was looking for something missing in my life, I got lucky with a lodge with other men in the same life stage who remain some of my closest and dearest friends and found that relational aspect that was missing.
A man is ready to become an entered apprentice when he reaches the point in his life when he is prepared to take the first step on the journey that is the answer to the simple question “what came you here to do?”. Until you are ready to do that you are still in your youthful nonage, but the age when you are ready to walk that path varies for each man. When I have interviewed candidates I often ask them what they like to do, what are their hobbies, where do they spend their free time to get an idea if they are ready to step forward.
I still play video games, and I am 62. I work full time, but I am very active in my lodge, my children have moved away, and I belong to the VFW, ABATE (motorcycle rights organization) Scottish Rite as well as my lodge. I find time to do all that and still play on my xbox. New season of Diablo III starts tonight.
“The implication was that when men have matured beyond the point of playing games and a more youthful lifestyle…” I still ride bicycles. Many people think bicycles are for kids, and they “mature” into cars and trucks. My father commuted to work on a bicycle for many years, and I still ride for the exercise. The same thing applies for those who are in softball leagues, particularly the senior leagues. They’re trying to stay in shape, with the hope of being still mobile when they get into their later years.
As for the video games and things like that, where does “Maturity” bring an end to the “games” and the start of “Hobbies?” Like WB Glen noted, as kids we played Super Mario Brothers, but now might be playing MMORPG games, where kids are battling it out against adults of all ages, even up into their 70’s. And some video games have proven to help cognitive function in seniors.
Here’s another way of looking at it. If we’re donning costumes and using props for a degree, are we “playing dress-up,” or are we impressing important lessons to our new members in a better way? And yes, that question had popped up among the older members in previous years, although in my area that talk has diminished significantly. While I (and most of us) agree that we need to move forward and improve ourselves, which means advancing in our maturity, we cannot forget the Child in us. That little immature kid that we were back several years ago was the kid that was learning, contemplating and accepting new lessons, new ideas, because we were innocent to the passions and prejudices that can clutter our adult minds.
I agree, it's not age, it's their maturity. I've known young men (early 20s) who are stellar masons, while I've known old masons that are/were jerks.
"Nonage" is the period of immaturity or youth. In this country, we consider 18 to be the age of adulthood, because that's when a person is old enough to vote, according to the US Constitution. But, is that person really old enough, experienced enough to make wise decisions? I say that varies, depending on experience. A youngster from a hard-working farm family knows about responsibility, honesty, and back-breaking labor. One from an inner-city environment doesn't have that experience. I am mentoring a young man (27) who is honest, hard-working, and extremely eager to engage in all the things Masonry has to offer. Is there an ideal age to start on the Masonic path? When that man is ready, he will take that all-important first step with his left foot. The problem is that there is so much bad information about our Craft out there--such as "I thought you had to be asked to join." While we cannot recruit, we can attract. And it is up to us to *be* that attraction at all times in all ways. Just my thoughts...