If you are a Mason, and not a Catholic, do you care?
As for me, I grew up in the Catholic Church. Mass, schools, altar boy, the whole thing. But, I’m certainly not a practicing Catholic. In my view, there is much to admire in the Church, and much to dissent from, and I’m comfortable both with my Masonic membership, and the fact that I’m not a practicing Catholic. That said, I do consider myself to be culturally Catholic. It’s what I grew up with.
But, I certainly find it interesting that the Church is continuing this battle against Freemasonry, a battle that it has fought for hundreds of years.
What about you, do you care?
Has your Lodge been negatively impacted by this prohibition?
I've worked on a book with a Freemson from Arrezzo on the birth of Freemasonry in Italy; it began with the "English Lodge" in Tuscany, with the exiles of the Jacobite rebellion. At the time, Tuscany was under the rule of the Medicis, before becoming a protectorate of the Austrians. Most of the ruling class of Tuscany became Freemasons, and their progressive and secular law changes (Tuscany was the first state to outlaw inquisition by torture etc) , moving away from the laws based on religious teachings, caused massive outcry in the Catholic church. It was at this stage, when the Church's power began to be usurped by secular humanist laws in Italy that they first outlawed Church members becoming masons.
Later on, as knowledge about ritual spread, they had a second disagreement on the term "raising" as only Christ can be "raised", which does display a misunderstanding (deliberate or otherwise) on certain events of masonic work.
When the English version comes to print I'll post a link, currently it's only in Italian
As a reformed catholic, I am a little disappointed in the church's decision. It seems that the phrase "Irreconcibility of church doctrine and the doctrine of freemasonry" is all on the part of freemasonry. I had read in another report that it was because we use religious symbols in non-Christian rituals. I tend to think that our rites are of a Christian background and that it is presumptive on the part of the pope to speak for all of Christianity.
As with the case of my father and many other men that I know, I believe that this declaration by the pope will have little effect in their attendance in lodge and remaining with the craft.
I think this will increase the membership of Freemasonry. Society and people are evolving in a good way. Questioning authority, exposing motives, and knowing for themselves what is good and what is evil, are more commonplace. Long gone are the days that people believe the only way they can communicate with thier higher spirit is through a priest, or allowed to get married inside their religion or race. I would love to see the reasoning behind the motive of reiterating anti-masonic statements from the pope. He runs a sadistic religion of man, who from track records, has killed more people on the count of Heresy and knowingly covered up mass sexual assaults on children. There are a lot of good people who happen to be Catholic. It's a shame the Pope misses the mark, but not a shocker.
I was raised Lutheran and married a nicah Italian Catholic gal. Her goal in life when we met was to be a Catholic nun. Apparently, I am not a good influence on that regard. We went in to talk to the priest about the High Mass wedding which she wanted. I asked some questions and the response was, "It's not worth the trouble to convert you but if the children are brought up Catholic, she could have her High Mass wedding." I am currently reading and listening to, "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White which parallels my thoughts on this subject. Tradition trumps Scripture in Catholism.
Nov 16, 2023·edited Nov 16, 2023Liked by Cameron M. Bailey
I also identify as Catholic culturally. Being highly ritualistic in its liturgical form, Freemasonry was natural for me. And there are a LOT of Catholic Freemasons around these parts.
Interestingly, I'm currently researching and writing about Pope Leo XIII's encyclical of Freemasonry. Well over a hundred years old, it reads like something from an Internet conspiracy site. What they describe as Freemasonry would be unrecognizable to any Brother, at least regular ones in America. The only accusation that has any merit is a promotion of the separation of church and state!
What I've found today is that there is a huge spectrum of beliefs on this, even within the Church. And even those who think the prohibition is unfounded will be hesitant to contradict the edicts of a past Vicar of Christ that since the time of these early encyclicals have pronounced themselves infallible of opinion.
Reading these older documents, I almost forgot how political and cultish the Church was pre-Vatican II. And then we have hardliners today who wish we could back to that. Heck, some of these people think the Knights of Columbus are heretics! The very idea of association with people who have deafferent ideas regarding Deity freaks them out, even though the Church itself has made great strides toward ecumenical harmony.
The fact is that the Freemasonry we practice has nothing to do with the imagined Freemasonry that the Church condemns. And if they continue to persecute a Brotherhood that represents the very best of any Gospel, they will be judged for it, not us.
I was born and raised in the Bible belt, studied Catholicism and attended many masses, prayed with Muslims at various Mosques around the Middle East, and meditated in Buddhist Temples and studied comparative religions at the post-graduate level. There are many reasons for what I just mentioned, we will need hours and a bottle of fine bourbon to discuss how & why. All this has led me to being somewhat of a deist in my approach to religion.
I very much align with this quote by Manley P. Hall "The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha, or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer....They know all religions are but one story told in diverse ways..."
I firmly believe that people generally do not choose their religious beliefs or practices, but they are a result of their cultural and geographical upbringing. For example, take a zealous Baptist from Virginia. With all things being the exact same (personality, socio-economic status, etc.), but instead of being raised in Virginia they were born and raised in the jungles of Thailand or the sands of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia they are going to be the same zealous religious person, just of the Theravada Buddhist or Muslim faith respectively. Organized religions, IMO, exploit this and have for centuries. Think what would have happened if our education system at sometime would have required studies in all the various religions in a manner that would allow individuals the ability to choose their religious preference, versus cultural synthesis? (just a thought).
It is well researched that a pre-historic trinitarian belief system was well indoctrinated throughout the world in various cultures centuries before the "Holy Church" espoused this belief. The Mayans, the Celts, Druids, Norse are but a few. It is documented by many archaeologists, historians and other academic researchers that the Church suppressed these by various means and adopted some of their ideas in order to spread their trinitarian Christianity in order to control the populace and garner power.
My point is this. The moral virtues of Freemasonry goes against all that the Church is trying to control and it weakens the Church's supreme attitude it has always tried to command. Freemasonry teaches us to be on the level, act on the square, to walk upright, brotherly love, relief and truth. The Catholic Church knows this. They know all our rituals, secrets, history etc. It would be naive to think they do not. So what are they afraid of or so nervous about? Loosing that control and power, and being exposed as a religion that existed possibly only for the purpose of said control and power. This would put them on the level of other religions, something I am willing to bet the Catholic Church will never concede to.
Any religious institution that prohibits their members from being a Freemason is also in fear of this. You can't have an institution like Freemasonry that believes in equality and freedom, and allows all religions to be on the level. In their (anti-masonic institutions) view this may cause others to think, question and come to their own conclusions in regards to their faith. This freedom (to think, question and choose) is sacrilegious to all those that claim and/or command authority over a belief - and thus we get proclamations as such.
I don't believe it has much, if anything to do with our rituals etc.
The Church is never going to forgive the fraternity for the gigantic embarrassment of the Taxil Affair. To accept Masonry for what it truly is means setting aside the infallibility of the Pope and the whole insanity of Unum Sanctum (basically even if the Pope is wrong he's right) and admit they have been chasing non existent demons ever since Leo Taxil made the Pope and the Church look like a pack of idiots.
Does it bother me? Not really. I'm not Catholic and never was. I am married to a former Catholic and my father in law was a staunch member of Knights of Columbus....which he admitted was the Church's attempt to provide a similar fraternity to compete with Freemasonry.
Overall the latest ruling is disappointing......Francis has opened up the Church and heaved out a lot of ridiculous dogma that not being able to see beyond Taxil is almost pathetic.
This is interesting timing. We have a new man making his inquiries, and mentioned he was Catholic.
My question then, is it our responsibility to inform this potential candidate of the Pope's thoughts on the matter, or should we mind our own business?
My personal opinion, not ours to decide. I don't think the Pope's influence is nearly as strong as it was 300 years ago. If it was there would be a lot of people in our government excommunicated already.
I do care. My interet in this amtter and its contribution to anyi-masonry. The following comments are extracted from a paper I presented on anti-masonry.
When Masonry was completely operative (17th centiery) masonry there was no religous opposition to it. Many lodges had specific pews in their neighboring churches. Of course they were all Roman Catholic and it is interesting that the Vatican had no problem with masonry at that time. The church needed the Masons to build their monasteries, cathedrals and churches.
During the Stuart Monarchy non-operative masonry, which had started in Scotland (James I of England and VI of Scotland was a non-operative Mason) was imported to London and from there France before and during the Stuart King exiles. However, it was not until after the Reformation and King Henry VIII usurping the Pope as the Head of the English Church that opposition to Freemasonry began.
The denomination with the longest history of objection to Freemasonry is the Roman Catholic Church. The objections raised by the Roman Catholic Church are based on the allegation that Masonry teaches a naturalistic deistic religion which is in conflict with Church doctrine. A number of Papal pronouncements have been issued against Freemasonry. The first was Pope Clement XII's In Eminenti, 28 April 1738, pronouncement against Freemasonry; the most recent was Pope Leo XIII's Ab Apostolici, 15 October 1890. Why did Pope Clement do it? In Eminenti he uses the banning of Freemasonry by other countries as the basis for his ban and interestingly did not invoke any religious reasons. It is claimed by HRH Michael of Albany that the Pope was first actually requested by the exiled King James VII, who was his cousin, but only to advise ENGLISH Roman Catholics not to join masonic lodges in an attempt to identify the pro-Hanoverian and protestant supporters who were infiltrating the lodges. Unfortunately, Clement XII saw masonry as a threat to the papacy and took the opportunity to ban Roman Catholics membership in all lodges thus defeating the very King whose claim to the throne of Britain he was supposed to be supporting.
There were loop holes in the first Papal Bull and in 1739 Joseph Cardinal Firrao issued a proclamation that reinforced it. He was also the first, in his proclamation, to suggest that Masons were guilty of heresy.
Interestingly Ireland, a Roman Catholic country, did not follow the ban. This may be because Irish Roman Catholicism is unique being a blend of some of the old Celtic religion. The Irish have always been known to be different. Irish Masons played a strong part in the spread of Freemasonry through their Military Lodges. Also there are still lodges in France, Italy and Spain; all Roman Catholic countries.
The 1917 Code of Canon Law explicitly declared that joining Freemasonry entailed automatic excommunication. The 1917 Code of Canon Law also forbade books friendly to Freemasonry. In 1983, the Church issued a new Code of Canon Law. Unlike its predecessor, it did not explicitly name Masonic orders among the secret societies it condemns. It states in part: ‘A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.’ This named omission of masonic orders caused both Catholics and Freemasons to believe that the ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons may have been lifted, especially after the perceived liberalization of Vatican II. However, the matter was clarified when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI), as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, issued a Declaration on Masonic Associations, which states: ‘... the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.’ Thus, from a Catholic perspective, there is still a ban on Catholics joining masonic lodges. For its part, Freemasonry has never objected to Catholics joining their fraternity. Those Grand Lodges in amity with UGLE deny the Church's claims and state that they explicitly adhere to the principle that ‘Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a substitute for religion’.
I'm not Catholic but I have family (in-laws) that is. I haven't personally suffered any ill effects from this latest round (yet) but I do care insofar as it affects my Catholic brothers and puts them at odds with their church for absolutely no good reason. And should it affect how my family perceives me I will certainly be more disappointed still.
I've worked on a book with a Freemson from Arrezzo on the birth of Freemasonry in Italy; it began with the "English Lodge" in Tuscany, with the exiles of the Jacobite rebellion. At the time, Tuscany was under the rule of the Medicis, before becoming a protectorate of the Austrians. Most of the ruling class of Tuscany became Freemasons, and their progressive and secular law changes (Tuscany was the first state to outlaw inquisition by torture etc) , moving away from the laws based on religious teachings, caused massive outcry in the Catholic church. It was at this stage, when the Church's power began to be usurped by secular humanist laws in Italy that they first outlawed Church members becoming masons.
Later on, as knowledge about ritual spread, they had a second disagreement on the term "raising" as only Christ can be "raised", which does display a misunderstanding (deliberate or otherwise) on certain events of masonic work.
When the English version comes to print I'll post a link, currently it's only in Italian
As a reformed catholic, I am a little disappointed in the church's decision. It seems that the phrase "Irreconcibility of church doctrine and the doctrine of freemasonry" is all on the part of freemasonry. I had read in another report that it was because we use religious symbols in non-Christian rituals. I tend to think that our rites are of a Christian background and that it is presumptive on the part of the pope to speak for all of Christianity.
As with the case of my father and many other men that I know, I believe that this declaration by the pope will have little effect in their attendance in lodge and remaining with the craft.
I think this will increase the membership of Freemasonry. Society and people are evolving in a good way. Questioning authority, exposing motives, and knowing for themselves what is good and what is evil, are more commonplace. Long gone are the days that people believe the only way they can communicate with thier higher spirit is through a priest, or allowed to get married inside their religion or race. I would love to see the reasoning behind the motive of reiterating anti-masonic statements from the pope. He runs a sadistic religion of man, who from track records, has killed more people on the count of Heresy and knowingly covered up mass sexual assaults on children. There are a lot of good people who happen to be Catholic. It's a shame the Pope misses the mark, but not a shocker.
I was raised Lutheran and married a nicah Italian Catholic gal. Her goal in life when we met was to be a Catholic nun. Apparently, I am not a good influence on that regard. We went in to talk to the priest about the High Mass wedding which she wanted. I asked some questions and the response was, "It's not worth the trouble to convert you but if the children are brought up Catholic, she could have her High Mass wedding." I am currently reading and listening to, "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White which parallels my thoughts on this subject. Tradition trumps Scripture in Catholism.
I wonder if the ban actually keeps Catholic men away from Freemasonry.
Or do some of them say to themselves, “Ha! I’ll show that Pope he’s not the boss of me!”
I also identify as Catholic culturally. Being highly ritualistic in its liturgical form, Freemasonry was natural for me. And there are a LOT of Catholic Freemasons around these parts.
Interestingly, I'm currently researching and writing about Pope Leo XIII's encyclical of Freemasonry. Well over a hundred years old, it reads like something from an Internet conspiracy site. What they describe as Freemasonry would be unrecognizable to any Brother, at least regular ones in America. The only accusation that has any merit is a promotion of the separation of church and state!
What I've found today is that there is a huge spectrum of beliefs on this, even within the Church. And even those who think the prohibition is unfounded will be hesitant to contradict the edicts of a past Vicar of Christ that since the time of these early encyclicals have pronounced themselves infallible of opinion.
Reading these older documents, I almost forgot how political and cultish the Church was pre-Vatican II. And then we have hardliners today who wish we could back to that. Heck, some of these people think the Knights of Columbus are heretics! The very idea of association with people who have deafferent ideas regarding Deity freaks them out, even though the Church itself has made great strides toward ecumenical harmony.
The fact is that the Freemasonry we practice has nothing to do with the imagined Freemasonry that the Church condemns. And if they continue to persecute a Brotherhood that represents the very best of any Gospel, they will be judged for it, not us.
I was born and raised in the Bible belt, studied Catholicism and attended many masses, prayed with Muslims at various Mosques around the Middle East, and meditated in Buddhist Temples and studied comparative religions at the post-graduate level. There are many reasons for what I just mentioned, we will need hours and a bottle of fine bourbon to discuss how & why. All this has led me to being somewhat of a deist in my approach to religion.
I very much align with this quote by Manley P. Hall "The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha, or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer....They know all religions are but one story told in diverse ways..."
I firmly believe that people generally do not choose their religious beliefs or practices, but they are a result of their cultural and geographical upbringing. For example, take a zealous Baptist from Virginia. With all things being the exact same (personality, socio-economic status, etc.), but instead of being raised in Virginia they were born and raised in the jungles of Thailand or the sands of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia they are going to be the same zealous religious person, just of the Theravada Buddhist or Muslim faith respectively. Organized religions, IMO, exploit this and have for centuries. Think what would have happened if our education system at sometime would have required studies in all the various religions in a manner that would allow individuals the ability to choose their religious preference, versus cultural synthesis? (just a thought).
It is well researched that a pre-historic trinitarian belief system was well indoctrinated throughout the world in various cultures centuries before the "Holy Church" espoused this belief. The Mayans, the Celts, Druids, Norse are but a few. It is documented by many archaeologists, historians and other academic researchers that the Church suppressed these by various means and adopted some of their ideas in order to spread their trinitarian Christianity in order to control the populace and garner power.
My point is this. The moral virtues of Freemasonry goes against all that the Church is trying to control and it weakens the Church's supreme attitude it has always tried to command. Freemasonry teaches us to be on the level, act on the square, to walk upright, brotherly love, relief and truth. The Catholic Church knows this. They know all our rituals, secrets, history etc. It would be naive to think they do not. So what are they afraid of or so nervous about? Loosing that control and power, and being exposed as a religion that existed possibly only for the purpose of said control and power. This would put them on the level of other religions, something I am willing to bet the Catholic Church will never concede to.
Any religious institution that prohibits their members from being a Freemason is also in fear of this. You can't have an institution like Freemasonry that believes in equality and freedom, and allows all religions to be on the level. In their (anti-masonic institutions) view this may cause others to think, question and come to their own conclusions in regards to their faith. This freedom (to think, question and choose) is sacrilegious to all those that claim and/or command authority over a belief - and thus we get proclamations as such.
Thank-you.
I don't believe it has much, if anything to do with our rituals etc.
The Church is never going to forgive the fraternity for the gigantic embarrassment of the Taxil Affair. To accept Masonry for what it truly is means setting aside the infallibility of the Pope and the whole insanity of Unum Sanctum (basically even if the Pope is wrong he's right) and admit they have been chasing non existent demons ever since Leo Taxil made the Pope and the Church look like a pack of idiots.
Does it bother me? Not really. I'm not Catholic and never was. I am married to a former Catholic and my father in law was a staunch member of Knights of Columbus....which he admitted was the Church's attempt to provide a similar fraternity to compete with Freemasonry.
Overall the latest ruling is disappointing......Francis has opened up the Church and heaved out a lot of ridiculous dogma that not being able to see beyond Taxil is almost pathetic.
This is interesting timing. We have a new man making his inquiries, and mentioned he was Catholic.
My question then, is it our responsibility to inform this potential candidate of the Pope's thoughts on the matter, or should we mind our own business?
My personal opinion, not ours to decide. I don't think the Pope's influence is nearly as strong as it was 300 years ago. If it was there would be a lot of people in our government excommunicated already.
This topic elsewhere:
https://brotherallatt.substack.com/p/understanding-the-catholic-churchs
https://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2023/11/vatican-reaffirms-ban-on-masonic.html
I do care. My interet in this amtter and its contribution to anyi-masonry. The following comments are extracted from a paper I presented on anti-masonry.
When Masonry was completely operative (17th centiery) masonry there was no religous opposition to it. Many lodges had specific pews in their neighboring churches. Of course they were all Roman Catholic and it is interesting that the Vatican had no problem with masonry at that time. The church needed the Masons to build their monasteries, cathedrals and churches.
During the Stuart Monarchy non-operative masonry, which had started in Scotland (James I of England and VI of Scotland was a non-operative Mason) was imported to London and from there France before and during the Stuart King exiles. However, it was not until after the Reformation and King Henry VIII usurping the Pope as the Head of the English Church that opposition to Freemasonry began.
The denomination with the longest history of objection to Freemasonry is the Roman Catholic Church. The objections raised by the Roman Catholic Church are based on the allegation that Masonry teaches a naturalistic deistic religion which is in conflict with Church doctrine. A number of Papal pronouncements have been issued against Freemasonry. The first was Pope Clement XII's In Eminenti, 28 April 1738, pronouncement against Freemasonry; the most recent was Pope Leo XIII's Ab Apostolici, 15 October 1890. Why did Pope Clement do it? In Eminenti he uses the banning of Freemasonry by other countries as the basis for his ban and interestingly did not invoke any religious reasons. It is claimed by HRH Michael of Albany that the Pope was first actually requested by the exiled King James VII, who was his cousin, but only to advise ENGLISH Roman Catholics not to join masonic lodges in an attempt to identify the pro-Hanoverian and protestant supporters who were infiltrating the lodges. Unfortunately, Clement XII saw masonry as a threat to the papacy and took the opportunity to ban Roman Catholics membership in all lodges thus defeating the very King whose claim to the throne of Britain he was supposed to be supporting.
There were loop holes in the first Papal Bull and in 1739 Joseph Cardinal Firrao issued a proclamation that reinforced it. He was also the first, in his proclamation, to suggest that Masons were guilty of heresy.
Interestingly Ireland, a Roman Catholic country, did not follow the ban. This may be because Irish Roman Catholicism is unique being a blend of some of the old Celtic religion. The Irish have always been known to be different. Irish Masons played a strong part in the spread of Freemasonry through their Military Lodges. Also there are still lodges in France, Italy and Spain; all Roman Catholic countries.
The 1917 Code of Canon Law explicitly declared that joining Freemasonry entailed automatic excommunication. The 1917 Code of Canon Law also forbade books friendly to Freemasonry. In 1983, the Church issued a new Code of Canon Law. Unlike its predecessor, it did not explicitly name Masonic orders among the secret societies it condemns. It states in part: ‘A person who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or takes office in such an association is to be punished with an interdict.’ This named omission of masonic orders caused both Catholics and Freemasons to believe that the ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons may have been lifted, especially after the perceived liberalization of Vatican II. However, the matter was clarified when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI), as the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, issued a Declaration on Masonic Associations, which states: ‘... the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.’ Thus, from a Catholic perspective, there is still a ban on Catholics joining masonic lodges. For its part, Freemasonry has never objected to Catholics joining their fraternity. Those Grand Lodges in amity with UGLE deny the Church's claims and state that they explicitly adhere to the principle that ‘Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a substitute for religion’.
I'm not Catholic but I have family (in-laws) that is. I haven't personally suffered any ill effects from this latest round (yet) but I do care insofar as it affects my Catholic brothers and puts them at odds with their church for absolutely no good reason. And should it affect how my family perceives me I will certainly be more disappointed still.