I believe they can be huge help, or at least get you in line with what common practices are.
The biggest thing, in my estimation, is what does the day to day look like? For our SR temple we looked at it but it made very little sense to pay an additional party when we already had a bldg superintendent, office worker, and a younger member as Exec. secretary specifically brought on board to modernize practices and rent the temple all on staff.
Other Masonic properties where you don’t have that kind of existing support system it can make a lot of sense. We have a lodge in the south part of the state that has a temple board and downstairs tenants and I believe they use a property mgmt company as well.
My concern with these things, as with most building concerns, is that I have seen so many masons with mercenary motives, and they “get taken care of” if they can finagle a lodge into using someone specific that might be ill suited for the task.
I’m currently dealing with a situation similar to that now, it is a mess because the men that came after the original temple builders did not seek aid and have very little understanding of the law. Now the temple board is trying to fix all the issues.
My general opinion has always been that we should not manage our own buildings. The politics alone of it detracts from our Work. And I didn't become a Mason to worry about building repairs.
And we very often make bad decisions, time and again, for decades. My mother Lodge spent half a million dollars to repair a few overdue things, do cosmetics that didn't last, and put in an elevator that barely fits a walker and takes forever to go between floors. The building probably isn't worth in total what we put into it after years of construction and battles with contractors.
Very well said. As Lucas points out, IF the lodge or other body is willing AND able to do the property management WORK, all well and good. That's a great way to give back to the craft. If the brothers are either not willing and/or not able to manage the building properly, it is a never-ending time and money sink, leading to frustration, conflict, and disillusionment.
As an outsider looking in, I want to open by complementing you, Cameron, for such an excellent post.
It always astonishes me when I see a temple building essentially go under. Masonry, the Great Architects, owning buildings that were prime in their time now transformed into decay disasters.
"WHY"?
1). I agree that is beyond prudent to retain counsel pursuant to always staying on top and otherwise ahead of modern practices. Ray Kroc comes to mind. He was out there hustling Mc Donald's franchises yet facing foreclosure of his home when someone from outside couldn't help but listen in. As Ray left the Bank the guy ran Ray down and explained to him, he needed to change his focus from hustling McDonald's to hustling Real Estate. To this day, Mc Donald's is now one of the largest owners of real estate in the world.
See, to me, collectively, y'all are HUGE, full of geniuses and although there are certainly reasons there are no excuses for any building owned by the Masons to be decapitated and/or otherwise losing money. So, I'm very glad you met with counsel as I admittedly like counsel's advice which amounts to what Ray Kroc was taught ... as Property Owners, change your focus - adjust yourselves to modern market conditions - don't survive; THRIVE.
2). Lucas hits a series of points as he notes many of y'all already have a certain amount of staff including, in his case, a Building Superintendent. Factor in the realities that Masons are generally known for their High IQs, of believing in Architecture beyond most if not all others, as are Masons known for their Goodwill/Philanthropy, and it seems to me much of what needs to be done may be accomplished by experienced volunteer Masons.
Here are some scenarios to consider:
A). I have a Brother, Ben, whom cares for multiple buildings in downtown Seattle. When I was talking about renovating this place he politely ripped into me reminders of all the Fix & Flip level contractors out there making personal fortunes by saving money as direct results from doing the renovations themselves.
B). My 2nd Angel/Daughter, Melanie, used to manage something like 3,000-Units throughout Washington state but mainly in the King/Snohomish County areas. Because the Property Management company she works for now, as well as the two she's worked for in the past, are all International Property Management companies, they've recognized her good work by rewarding he with annual trips to company conventions where she trains new property managers.
There's a couple of points to Melanie. She's always been LOYAL so the reason she's worked for multiple companies is because property management companies are like other companies in that they buy then sell each other. Sometimes the "New Owners" will come in with their staff and gut/reorganize the operations they just purchased, other times they simply let things go pretty much as usual.
Sometimes, the new staff was desperately needed as Maintenance can seem to get things done in timely manners while Maintenance often blames the new management for holding up funds thereby stopping Maintenance from filling work orders as a direct result of lack of parts as Maintenance cannot purchase parts without funds. Just as an example. So, there is a lot of "Politics" involved when dealing with a property management company.
Meanwhile, there is also a LOT of missing money. Sometimes as a direct result of a thieving manager, sometimes its because of the maintenance department and sometimes it is plain corruption from maintenance to upper management. That is "why", nowadays, Melanie is happy just managing one complex.
Awe, and another, "Meanwhile", despite all of the thievery Property Management companies are making billions at the expense of their clients/property owners.
C). My son, James III (whom says, "Hi Cameron") used to also have around 3,000-residential and commercial/retail units under his (partial) control as an Assistant Community Manager in the Seattle area. He was an Assistant Community Manager with 14-Maintenance and 4-Interns under his direct supervision. Their office was just off of Broadway on Capitol Hill and their territory ranged from West Seattle to Lake Forest Park.
Although Melanie is an actual Property Manager, James III's stories come from the Maintenance perspective. Yet, they are essentially the same stories. When it comes to staffing, the pay is competitive but the Property Management Companies are still sticking it hard and deep to the Property Owners as the Property Management Companies are in business to make as much money as they can.
Being on the Maintenance side of things, James III also goes off from time-to-time about how former Maintenance people and/or their management were so cheap and/ or lazy that they simply let things go thereby resulting in avoidable yet expensive injuries to via neglect alone. Lots of avoidable infestation problems as well as avoidable property damages. SAD!!!!!
James III just took over a 277-Unit Building in Shoreline. The building was built in only 2023 yet had a 22-year young Assistant Manager as anal and self-important as can be as he rides the Maintenance staff about crap like paint actually leaves patterns when painted depending on how the paint is applied. So, they have 30-units still not ready to be leased. Meanwhile, until James III literally moved into the building this past week, they had (still have) 2-maintenance guys on the team. One is 20 while the other is only 19 and they both have serious work-ethic issues.
D). As I've been writing this, I had an Epiphany. Y'all are supposed to be creative so create. Create a Masons owned Property Management company if just to keep costs down while Masons serve other Masons. Audit yourselves, ascertain what you can do on your own then call the Masons' Property Management Company when specialty services ae needed.
Also create regularly scheduled maintenance contracts among yourselves. So, we are not talking about just one-off needs for electrical or plumbing upgrades as examples, but have the Mason Property Management company be prepared to field calls for everything from basic repairs to "flipping" units i.e. painting them, getting carpets done, whatever, just like any other Real Estate company would assure when putting a unit up for lease when a tenant vacates.
Guys, I was mass sad when I saw that big beautiful tribute to Masonry overlooking the Puget Sound transform into a serious black eye for past generations of Masons which actually built that palatial temple. Then I saw others which made me even sadder. To me, its like a call for Modern Masons to WAKE UP!!!!! Generations of Masons built these marvelous places just to have the last generation or two really screw things up. SAD!!!!!
So, I decided to respond to this posting as I am VERY GLAD Cameron and his Brothers had the Common Sense to at least seek legal counsel.
3). Counsel is so right. It seems you treat your real estate as residential instead of commercial as it should be.
A great example may be found in a Mid-Western Mason building/facility. One of the biggest most popular Concert Halls in the Midwest is a Mason Temple. The place is consistently packed with the Best of the Best so the money flows in. I've offered it before and I'm offering it now, name the building &/or campground then give me the latitude to do what I do at which point I can reasonably easily customize an entertainment program for said building &/or campground. Mind you, a program that, if provided the genuine opportunity, could/would tie-in with other Mason controlled/owned buildings &/or campgrounds.
I may not be "Worldwide" as y'all are but it's fair to say with proper approvals from y'all I can tie-in across our United States, parts of Europe, and the Gold Coast of Australia, minimum.
Well, there you go - my two-bits s a fly on the wall. Think About It!!!!!
Professional management make a lot of sense in situations where there is limited availability or support for managing the property. Though I might be concerned whether the cost is supported by the profitability of the space, otherwise it might make a bad situation worse. I think a lot of it comes down to determining what the state of the building is in, how many members are willing to dedicate some time and support, and demand in the locality. A little bit of research can shed light on a way forward, if we are willing to collectively work towards a solution before it is too late.
I think one of the biggest challenges faced is bringing a building up to current market expectations in terms of updates and maintenance, especially if it has been inconsistently maintained.
It is a shame that many of our historic buildings have been lost, and in many cases due to avoidable conditions.
I believe they can be huge help, or at least get you in line with what common practices are.
The biggest thing, in my estimation, is what does the day to day look like? For our SR temple we looked at it but it made very little sense to pay an additional party when we already had a bldg superintendent, office worker, and a younger member as Exec. secretary specifically brought on board to modernize practices and rent the temple all on staff.
Other Masonic properties where you don’t have that kind of existing support system it can make a lot of sense. We have a lodge in the south part of the state that has a temple board and downstairs tenants and I believe they use a property mgmt company as well.
My concern with these things, as with most building concerns, is that I have seen so many masons with mercenary motives, and they “get taken care of” if they can finagle a lodge into using someone specific that might be ill suited for the task.
I’m currently dealing with a situation similar to that now, it is a mess because the men that came after the original temple builders did not seek aid and have very little understanding of the law. Now the temple board is trying to fix all the issues.
My general opinion has always been that we should not manage our own buildings. The politics alone of it detracts from our Work. And I didn't become a Mason to worry about building repairs.
And we very often make bad decisions, time and again, for decades. My mother Lodge spent half a million dollars to repair a few overdue things, do cosmetics that didn't last, and put in an elevator that barely fits a walker and takes forever to go between floors. The building probably isn't worth in total what we put into it after years of construction and battles with contractors.
Very well said. As Lucas points out, IF the lodge or other body is willing AND able to do the property management WORK, all well and good. That's a great way to give back to the craft. If the brothers are either not willing and/or not able to manage the building properly, it is a never-ending time and money sink, leading to frustration, conflict, and disillusionment.
As an outsider looking in, I want to open by complementing you, Cameron, for such an excellent post.
It always astonishes me when I see a temple building essentially go under. Masonry, the Great Architects, owning buildings that were prime in their time now transformed into decay disasters.
"WHY"?
1). I agree that is beyond prudent to retain counsel pursuant to always staying on top and otherwise ahead of modern practices. Ray Kroc comes to mind. He was out there hustling Mc Donald's franchises yet facing foreclosure of his home when someone from outside couldn't help but listen in. As Ray left the Bank the guy ran Ray down and explained to him, he needed to change his focus from hustling McDonald's to hustling Real Estate. To this day, Mc Donald's is now one of the largest owners of real estate in the world.
See, to me, collectively, y'all are HUGE, full of geniuses and although there are certainly reasons there are no excuses for any building owned by the Masons to be decapitated and/or otherwise losing money. So, I'm very glad you met with counsel as I admittedly like counsel's advice which amounts to what Ray Kroc was taught ... as Property Owners, change your focus - adjust yourselves to modern market conditions - don't survive; THRIVE.
2). Lucas hits a series of points as he notes many of y'all already have a certain amount of staff including, in his case, a Building Superintendent. Factor in the realities that Masons are generally known for their High IQs, of believing in Architecture beyond most if not all others, as are Masons known for their Goodwill/Philanthropy, and it seems to me much of what needs to be done may be accomplished by experienced volunteer Masons.
Here are some scenarios to consider:
A). I have a Brother, Ben, whom cares for multiple buildings in downtown Seattle. When I was talking about renovating this place he politely ripped into me reminders of all the Fix & Flip level contractors out there making personal fortunes by saving money as direct results from doing the renovations themselves.
B). My 2nd Angel/Daughter, Melanie, used to manage something like 3,000-Units throughout Washington state but mainly in the King/Snohomish County areas. Because the Property Management company she works for now, as well as the two she's worked for in the past, are all International Property Management companies, they've recognized her good work by rewarding he with annual trips to company conventions where she trains new property managers.
There's a couple of points to Melanie. She's always been LOYAL so the reason she's worked for multiple companies is because property management companies are like other companies in that they buy then sell each other. Sometimes the "New Owners" will come in with their staff and gut/reorganize the operations they just purchased, other times they simply let things go pretty much as usual.
Sometimes, the new staff was desperately needed as Maintenance can seem to get things done in timely manners while Maintenance often blames the new management for holding up funds thereby stopping Maintenance from filling work orders as a direct result of lack of parts as Maintenance cannot purchase parts without funds. Just as an example. So, there is a lot of "Politics" involved when dealing with a property management company.
Meanwhile, there is also a LOT of missing money. Sometimes as a direct result of a thieving manager, sometimes its because of the maintenance department and sometimes it is plain corruption from maintenance to upper management. That is "why", nowadays, Melanie is happy just managing one complex.
Awe, and another, "Meanwhile", despite all of the thievery Property Management companies are making billions at the expense of their clients/property owners.
C). My son, James III (whom says, "Hi Cameron") used to also have around 3,000-residential and commercial/retail units under his (partial) control as an Assistant Community Manager in the Seattle area. He was an Assistant Community Manager with 14-Maintenance and 4-Interns under his direct supervision. Their office was just off of Broadway on Capitol Hill and their territory ranged from West Seattle to Lake Forest Park.
Although Melanie is an actual Property Manager, James III's stories come from the Maintenance perspective. Yet, they are essentially the same stories. When it comes to staffing, the pay is competitive but the Property Management Companies are still sticking it hard and deep to the Property Owners as the Property Management Companies are in business to make as much money as they can.
Being on the Maintenance side of things, James III also goes off from time-to-time about how former Maintenance people and/or their management were so cheap and/ or lazy that they simply let things go thereby resulting in avoidable yet expensive injuries to via neglect alone. Lots of avoidable infestation problems as well as avoidable property damages. SAD!!!!!
James III just took over a 277-Unit Building in Shoreline. The building was built in only 2023 yet had a 22-year young Assistant Manager as anal and self-important as can be as he rides the Maintenance staff about crap like paint actually leaves patterns when painted depending on how the paint is applied. So, they have 30-units still not ready to be leased. Meanwhile, until James III literally moved into the building this past week, they had (still have) 2-maintenance guys on the team. One is 20 while the other is only 19 and they both have serious work-ethic issues.
D). As I've been writing this, I had an Epiphany. Y'all are supposed to be creative so create. Create a Masons owned Property Management company if just to keep costs down while Masons serve other Masons. Audit yourselves, ascertain what you can do on your own then call the Masons' Property Management Company when specialty services ae needed.
Also create regularly scheduled maintenance contracts among yourselves. So, we are not talking about just one-off needs for electrical or plumbing upgrades as examples, but have the Mason Property Management company be prepared to field calls for everything from basic repairs to "flipping" units i.e. painting them, getting carpets done, whatever, just like any other Real Estate company would assure when putting a unit up for lease when a tenant vacates.
Guys, I was mass sad when I saw that big beautiful tribute to Masonry overlooking the Puget Sound transform into a serious black eye for past generations of Masons which actually built that palatial temple. Then I saw others which made me even sadder. To me, its like a call for Modern Masons to WAKE UP!!!!! Generations of Masons built these marvelous places just to have the last generation or two really screw things up. SAD!!!!!
So, I decided to respond to this posting as I am VERY GLAD Cameron and his Brothers had the Common Sense to at least seek legal counsel.
3). Counsel is so right. It seems you treat your real estate as residential instead of commercial as it should be.
A great example may be found in a Mid-Western Mason building/facility. One of the biggest most popular Concert Halls in the Midwest is a Mason Temple. The place is consistently packed with the Best of the Best so the money flows in. I've offered it before and I'm offering it now, name the building &/or campground then give me the latitude to do what I do at which point I can reasonably easily customize an entertainment program for said building &/or campground. Mind you, a program that, if provided the genuine opportunity, could/would tie-in with other Mason controlled/owned buildings &/or campgrounds.
I may not be "Worldwide" as y'all are but it's fair to say with proper approvals from y'all I can tie-in across our United States, parts of Europe, and the Gold Coast of Australia, minimum.
Well, there you go - my two-bits s a fly on the wall. Think About It!!!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!!!
Professional management make a lot of sense in situations where there is limited availability or support for managing the property. Though I might be concerned whether the cost is supported by the profitability of the space, otherwise it might make a bad situation worse. I think a lot of it comes down to determining what the state of the building is in, how many members are willing to dedicate some time and support, and demand in the locality. A little bit of research can shed light on a way forward, if we are willing to collectively work towards a solution before it is too late.
I think one of the biggest challenges faced is bringing a building up to current market expectations in terms of updates and maintenance, especially if it has been inconsistently maintained.
It is a shame that many of our historic buildings have been lost, and in many cases due to avoidable conditions.