MWPGM Bailey, you got me laughing! My Webster NY Lodge was beside a Xerox Corp Factory. As a Production Engineer at Xerox, I helped develop Star Workstations, and Ethernet (we invented the Mouse & WYSIWYG)! I was a Systems Engineer, till Xerox went into the toilet (laid off 7,000 of the 16,000 Xerox employees in the Rochester NY area)! Xerox leaders thought that what Palo Alto Research Center visionaries had developed was too expensive to be sold (like you said, didn't understand Computer technology or how networking costs could drop so Workstations could be affordable)?
I have read that Jobs saw the WYSIWYG desktop at a Xerox facility, stole the idea, and hence the Mac. Then of course Gates stole it from Apple. If true, the profits lost by Xerox must be truly staggering, undoubtedly on the order of the profits lost by IBM when it decided to focus on hardware instead of an OS for that hardware.
IBM did indeed have an OS for their PS/2's; it was call OS/2. When I was in high school, I slightly preferred OS/2 over Windows 3.1, but by the time OS/2 Warp Connect came out, people were standardizing on Windows 95, so all attention shifted there.
I was never in my life a Windows guy. Apple only from the time of the Apple IIc. Until recently when I made the switch to Chrome OS.
I find that Chrome OS can do everything I ever need to do, and of course Apple without Steve Jobs is nothing. Apple couldn't innovate after they fired him, became wonderful again after he returned, but hasn't done anything impressive since he passed away.
Of course, I did have to suffer with Windows in my career, but never willingly!
Ha! ChromeOS. Once again, based on Gentoo, and it was formerly based on Ubuntu, and has ties to Debian. I.E. it uses a Linux kernel. As does the Android OS (also associated with Google.)
Yeah, one can ditch the Chrome OS overlay if one wants, and just use the Linux bit instead. I've thought about it, but I've not found Chrome to limit me from doing anything I need or want to do.
Is this ‘old farterry’ a particular age or can it happen at a different age depending on the person?
I mention the other day before a meeting with a brother that I can never tell how old a person is just by looking at them and it turned out we were the exact same age.
Not to mention I have no idea how old you are MW Sandwich Generation
It can be partly the age, but an equally valid factor could be the person’s line of work. A retired IT worker in his 70’s will likely know more about computers and technology than a logger in his 40’s, although there will obviously be exceptions. I remember talking with another college professor when I was a student in the mid 1990’s when they had a career-change program (I can’t recall what the program was called, although I think I remember it) where blue-collar workers such as loggers and coal mine workers came to the college to get assessed with their knowledge base and put into courses that best fit their existing knowledge. It was a challenge, not so much because they had no knowledge base, as that can’t be true, otherwise they’d be dead (logging and mining are dangerous jobs) but it was the attitude. These guys had an inherent disdain for educated folks. They considered college graduates to be “book smart and street stupid,” just as some big-city white-collar people consider blue-collar workers to exactly the opposite. But the truth is in the area of both sides being smarter in the other side’s field than that side cares to admit. The best way to resolve that problem is to call out the finger-pointing (which I have done a lot) and point out how each profession and trade can work together as a team to achieve a common goal.
And to answer your last sentence, even though you weren’t addressing me: I’m 4 years younger than your Cutlass.
>>>A retired IT worker in his 70’s will likely know more about computers and technology >>>than a logger in his 40’s, although there will obviously be exceptions.
Certainly true. But in that case it is just the reverse. The Logger will have to explain how and why the tree in front of the Lodge building needs to be cut down in ways that the computer guy can understand.
Well you know I am 12 years older than my Cutlass and tomorrow will be my start of year 22 at CERN and my 10 computers think they all live in the middle of a Giant Sequoia forest 🤣
Ah, I think that 'Old Farterry' can come at lots of different ages.
I've been contemplating going both 'Old Farterry' and senile for some time now, but Melinda won't let me. My thought is that if I declare myself a senile old man, then I can get away with anything! People will just say 'don't worry about it, he's just nuts' instead of calling the cops. Alas though, Melinda says no. 🤣
You made some excellent points in this post, MW. I've said it from the first day I met members of our lodge -- we must meet them where they are. In most contexts, I'm specifically speaking about ensuring our Lodge activities are visible to the public where the public is actively consuming content. But, that same mentality carries over into all forms of communication. When your audience starts going blank faced, or in some cases outright resistant to that which you are saying, you've failed to meet them where they are.
Effectively communicating complex, technical topics to a not-so-well-versed audience is a struggle every advanced level technologist faces almost daily. For example, that feature Mr. CEO wants in the app could work if we tackle constraints X, Y, Z, which will completely nuke Mr. CEO's desired timeline. Mr. CEO doesn't care about how the underlying architecture of the app using tech stack A has inherent technical limitations, that while aren't full on blockers to achieve fancy new magic, will require hacking around the mass contabulator so the spacial spectrometer can trigger the whirlygig to emulsify the particulates. He just wants to know what a realistic timeline is, and if it can be done at a reasonable cost. He may ask for some lower level details, but it's our job to initially communicate as high level as we can without treading into the territory where he feels unseen, or made to feel ignorant, and thus combative to whatever information you're trying to deliver.
While I'm not suggesting a lack of ability to comprehend, in many cases it takes a bit of back and forth to figure out where that balance is for explaining something new/difficult to someone like one would to a child vs to an expert. You don't want to be patronizing, but you also don't want to tread into the territory where your audience feels something like condescension. Meeting on the level is a necessary art.
Thank you. I'm glad that you found some value in this post. I too work in an area that is very difficult for outsiders to understand, so certainly have found lots of communications challenges with that. But, when we develop these skills, they can serve us well for life.
Being one of those Sandwich Brothers (I’ll choose the Monte Cristo), I know what you mean about being right in the middle. I do work around computers enough to have 3 different Linux OS’s on laptops, but at the same time, some of our younger members explaining the new technology to the Brothers almost sound like carnival barkers or used car salesmen. Not only does it lose them, it can also drive them to anger. Bafflin’ them with Bullshit, as the old saying goes.
But at the same time, as you note, the older generation need to fire up their listening and focusing skills. I have tried to explain technology to some of our older Brothers, at times bringing it down to the Three Stooges’ “Bee Bi Bickey-Bye” method that I thought would work better (but not clear down to Sesame Street, out of fear of sounding condescending) and sometimes it works. The biggest issue I have had is the older generation “following the Squirrel.” It’s kind of like this:
Clayton: “So the next step is to click here to bring up the next menu…”
Student: “What does that button do over there?”
Clayton: “We’re focusing on this button to get to the next step…”
Student: “Yeah, but I want to know what that button does. What does it do?”
Clayton: “That’s another topic for another time. I’m showing you how to do what you asked me to help you with. So let’s bring up that menu…”
Then the student clicks on the button that he wants to explore, messing up the flow of what I was teaching, or in one case, crashing the computer, and in that case, the student cursed the computer and started bad-mouthing technology in general. I’ve had college professors tell me that Senior Citizens are their worst students for that reason – following the squirrel.
Communicating with Lodge Secretaries on a regular basis, I’m working with a couple of Secretaries who are in their early 90’s who work with the operating systems and databases well, while I’ve also worked with Secretaries who are 20-25 years younger that struggle badly. A lot of it has to do with the Secretary’s former career. But of those who struggle, many of them are against using the technology. They want to keep being the Secretary, but they want to do it the old way, with typewriters, paper and stamps. I start telling them the obvious, and they say “Yeah, yeah, Very Worshipful, I know. But damn it, it was so much easier back then!” Not really. It’s just what they are familiar and comfortable with. Change is hard! I totally get it. But it surrounds us. You can’t avoid change. If you do nothing, change is still occurring as you stand still against the progressing landscape. You’re just moving backwards, in a relative sense.
I shall allow you to be the Monte Cristo, given that I'm certainly the Ruben. Corned Beef, Swiss, Sauerkraut, Russian Dressing, all on toasted and buttered Rye. Nothing better in the world!
On to more serious things though, you are certainly right, change is really hard, and most of us are Masters at avoiding it at all costs! Hell, look at me, I'm still posting on Facebook from time to time despite the fact that it is completely enshittified and almost everyone has left.
MWB Bailey, well put. If we can overcome these communications challenges relating to Lodge management across generational/situational divides, perhaps these benefits will convey beyond the minor challenges we face in Lodge.
This could offer us the ability to learn to understand each other’s positions and intentions, to better meet each other from a place of empathy and understanding.
Thank you for the reminder to communicate and listen for the purpose of mutual understanding and benefit.
>>>perhaps these benefits will convey beyond the minor challenges we face in Lodge.
I think that this is exactly right. Learning to communicate about complex subjects, cross generationally and with effectiveness is a skill we can learn in Lodge that will benefit us in other areas of our lives. Our personal and our professional lives.
And I think that is really important. Helping a man improve himself in ways that will help him outside of the Lodge can be a great benefit of Freemasonry. If we do it.
Old Fartery is a mindset, not an age defined one. I might be in denial but I still consider myself middle aged, except my drivers license claims otherwise. It's odd to think that yes, I am entitled to sit in the "seniors" seats on a bus now, although I don't feel "senior".
But more to the point, I've forgotten more about technology than most of these young whipper snappers will ever know. But there is an ocean of technology that baffles me to no end. I'm a hardware guy. I build and manage servers and the applications they run. I've set up and managed hundreds of desktop PCs. I've built many PCs from scratch. I've owned PCs since about 1980.
going back even further, I've worked on mainframes, computer that were older than me. I've spent months in schools learning electronics. I've built and repaired circuit boards. I used to know how to use an oscilloscope. I love Boolean logic. I know what a subnet mask is. VLANs. I'm telling you, a vast plethora of otherwise useless knowledge today, like, what a mosfet is. What do the color bands on a resistor mean. Useless crap.
But cloud computing? Forgetaboutit. Could be talking Greek to me. I have access to Azure, GCP, AWS, and only know about 1% of what's there. It's like my brain just says, "sorry, parks closed, the moose out front should have told you that".
I do agree, Old Fartery is a mindset. I still think of myself as one of the young guys in Lodge. But, when those thoughts do come, I try to remember that I am not. Lest I eventually become one of those Past Masters who refuse anything new and hold a Lodge back because of it.
I've read all of the previous comments and they're all on point. Age, education, and life style differences make effective communication both difficult and urgently necessary.
I also think there is a broader point. We're so comfortable dwelling on our history and our traditions that by the time we get to thinking about our future it's already happened. And since we didn't think about it and plan for it we opt for the comfort of our past. We have long range planning committees and may or may not do anything and then a new WM is installed and the importance of that committee likely changes,
But this isn't about committees. It about our culture. If we want Masonry to be around 50 or 100 years from now we need to analyze what's going to appeal to a boy who's in third grade and will be eligible to petition in 10 years. That's a big challenge since we have trouble communicating with the Brothers who are in the room today.
I don't know the answer, but we've really should put the question on table and work on it with an open mind. And such an exercise won't be effective if done in a single lodge, it really should be addressed at a Grand Lodge level as well.
When I was DDGM I tried to do this in my District meeting. The District Brothers loved the program. Six years later I'm still getting compliments. But the Grand Lodge team felt that it took too long. In hindsight the District meeting was probably the wrong venue, but I'll take at least a little credit for putting the question on the table.
>>>If we want Masonry to be around 50 or 100 years from now we need to analyze what's >>>going to appeal to a boy who's in third grade and will be eligible to petition in 10 years.
Your point is well taken. If we plan now to attract the man who is 25 now, we will be far behind by the time we put our plans into motion. I don't know how we plan now for what that 3rd grader might want, but I think you are right, we should certainly attempt to figure it out.
Perhaps a young Mason, Millennial or younger, who demonstrates strategic thinking skills should be appointed Grand Futurist, and he should work hand-in-hand with other Millenials and a couple DeMolay members
Agreed, it is a solid idea. Particularly given that we tend to most often only appoint those men to Grand Lodge Office that have a great many years within the Craft.
MWPGM Bailey, you got me laughing! My Webster NY Lodge was beside a Xerox Corp Factory. As a Production Engineer at Xerox, I helped develop Star Workstations, and Ethernet (we invented the Mouse & WYSIWYG)! I was a Systems Engineer, till Xerox went into the toilet (laid off 7,000 of the 16,000 Xerox employees in the Rochester NY area)! Xerox leaders thought that what Palo Alto Research Center visionaries had developed was too expensive to be sold (like you said, didn't understand Computer technology or how networking costs could drop so Workstations could be affordable)?
I have read that Jobs saw the WYSIWYG desktop at a Xerox facility, stole the idea, and hence the Mac. Then of course Gates stole it from Apple. If true, the profits lost by Xerox must be truly staggering, undoubtedly on the order of the profits lost by IBM when it decided to focus on hardware instead of an OS for that hardware.
IBM did indeed have an OS for their PS/2's; it was call OS/2. When I was in high school, I slightly preferred OS/2 over Windows 3.1, but by the time OS/2 Warp Connect came out, people were standardizing on Windows 95, so all attention shifted there.
MS used OS/2 to compile the code for windows as it was back the only 32 bit OS capable of doing so.
I was never in my life a Windows guy. Apple only from the time of the Apple IIc. Until recently when I made the switch to Chrome OS.
I find that Chrome OS can do everything I ever need to do, and of course Apple without Steve Jobs is nothing. Apple couldn't innovate after they fired him, became wonderful again after he returned, but hasn't done anything impressive since he passed away.
Of course, I did have to suffer with Windows in my career, but never willingly!
Ha! ChromeOS. Once again, based on Gentoo, and it was formerly based on Ubuntu, and has ties to Debian. I.E. it uses a Linux kernel. As does the Android OS (also associated with Google.)
We’ll make a geek out of you yet!
Yeah, one can ditch the Chrome OS overlay if one wants, and just use the Linux bit instead. I've thought about it, but I've not found Chrome to limit me from doing anything I need or want to do.
Is this ‘old farterry’ a particular age or can it happen at a different age depending on the person?
I mention the other day before a meeting with a brother that I can never tell how old a person is just by looking at them and it turned out we were the exact same age.
Not to mention I have no idea how old you are MW Sandwich Generation
It can be partly the age, but an equally valid factor could be the person’s line of work. A retired IT worker in his 70’s will likely know more about computers and technology than a logger in his 40’s, although there will obviously be exceptions. I remember talking with another college professor when I was a student in the mid 1990’s when they had a career-change program (I can’t recall what the program was called, although I think I remember it) where blue-collar workers such as loggers and coal mine workers came to the college to get assessed with their knowledge base and put into courses that best fit their existing knowledge. It was a challenge, not so much because they had no knowledge base, as that can’t be true, otherwise they’d be dead (logging and mining are dangerous jobs) but it was the attitude. These guys had an inherent disdain for educated folks. They considered college graduates to be “book smart and street stupid,” just as some big-city white-collar people consider blue-collar workers to exactly the opposite. But the truth is in the area of both sides being smarter in the other side’s field than that side cares to admit. The best way to resolve that problem is to call out the finger-pointing (which I have done a lot) and point out how each profession and trade can work together as a team to achieve a common goal.
And to answer your last sentence, even though you weren’t addressing me: I’m 4 years younger than your Cutlass.
>>>A retired IT worker in his 70’s will likely know more about computers and technology >>>than a logger in his 40’s, although there will obviously be exceptions.
Certainly true. But in that case it is just the reverse. The Logger will have to explain how and why the tree in front of the Lodge building needs to be cut down in ways that the computer guy can understand.
Well you know I am 12 years older than my Cutlass and tomorrow will be my start of year 22 at CERN and my 10 computers think they all live in the middle of a Giant Sequoia forest 🤣
Ah, I think that 'Old Farterry' can come at lots of different ages.
I've been contemplating going both 'Old Farterry' and senile for some time now, but Melinda won't let me. My thought is that if I declare myself a senile old man, then I can get away with anything! People will just say 'don't worry about it, he's just nuts' instead of calling the cops. Alas though, Melinda says no. 🤣
You made some excellent points in this post, MW. I've said it from the first day I met members of our lodge -- we must meet them where they are. In most contexts, I'm specifically speaking about ensuring our Lodge activities are visible to the public where the public is actively consuming content. But, that same mentality carries over into all forms of communication. When your audience starts going blank faced, or in some cases outright resistant to that which you are saying, you've failed to meet them where they are.
Effectively communicating complex, technical topics to a not-so-well-versed audience is a struggle every advanced level technologist faces almost daily. For example, that feature Mr. CEO wants in the app could work if we tackle constraints X, Y, Z, which will completely nuke Mr. CEO's desired timeline. Mr. CEO doesn't care about how the underlying architecture of the app using tech stack A has inherent technical limitations, that while aren't full on blockers to achieve fancy new magic, will require hacking around the mass contabulator so the spacial spectrometer can trigger the whirlygig to emulsify the particulates. He just wants to know what a realistic timeline is, and if it can be done at a reasonable cost. He may ask for some lower level details, but it's our job to initially communicate as high level as we can without treading into the territory where he feels unseen, or made to feel ignorant, and thus combative to whatever information you're trying to deliver.
While I'm not suggesting a lack of ability to comprehend, in many cases it takes a bit of back and forth to figure out where that balance is for explaining something new/difficult to someone like one would to a child vs to an expert. You don't want to be patronizing, but you also don't want to tread into the territory where your audience feels something like condescension. Meeting on the level is a necessary art.
Thank you. I'm glad that you found some value in this post. I too work in an area that is very difficult for outsiders to understand, so certainly have found lots of communications challenges with that. But, when we develop these skills, they can serve us well for life.
Being one of those Sandwich Brothers (I’ll choose the Monte Cristo), I know what you mean about being right in the middle. I do work around computers enough to have 3 different Linux OS’s on laptops, but at the same time, some of our younger members explaining the new technology to the Brothers almost sound like carnival barkers or used car salesmen. Not only does it lose them, it can also drive them to anger. Bafflin’ them with Bullshit, as the old saying goes.
But at the same time, as you note, the older generation need to fire up their listening and focusing skills. I have tried to explain technology to some of our older Brothers, at times bringing it down to the Three Stooges’ “Bee Bi Bickey-Bye” method that I thought would work better (but not clear down to Sesame Street, out of fear of sounding condescending) and sometimes it works. The biggest issue I have had is the older generation “following the Squirrel.” It’s kind of like this:
Clayton: “So the next step is to click here to bring up the next menu…”
Student: “What does that button do over there?”
Clayton: “We’re focusing on this button to get to the next step…”
Student: “Yeah, but I want to know what that button does. What does it do?”
Clayton: “That’s another topic for another time. I’m showing you how to do what you asked me to help you with. So let’s bring up that menu…”
Then the student clicks on the button that he wants to explore, messing up the flow of what I was teaching, or in one case, crashing the computer, and in that case, the student cursed the computer and started bad-mouthing technology in general. I’ve had college professors tell me that Senior Citizens are their worst students for that reason – following the squirrel.
Communicating with Lodge Secretaries on a regular basis, I’m working with a couple of Secretaries who are in their early 90’s who work with the operating systems and databases well, while I’ve also worked with Secretaries who are 20-25 years younger that struggle badly. A lot of it has to do with the Secretary’s former career. But of those who struggle, many of them are against using the technology. They want to keep being the Secretary, but they want to do it the old way, with typewriters, paper and stamps. I start telling them the obvious, and they say “Yeah, yeah, Very Worshipful, I know. But damn it, it was so much easier back then!” Not really. It’s just what they are familiar and comfortable with. Change is hard! I totally get it. But it surrounds us. You can’t avoid change. If you do nothing, change is still occurring as you stand still against the progressing landscape. You’re just moving backwards, in a relative sense.
I shall allow you to be the Monte Cristo, given that I'm certainly the Ruben. Corned Beef, Swiss, Sauerkraut, Russian Dressing, all on toasted and buttered Rye. Nothing better in the world!
On to more serious things though, you are certainly right, change is really hard, and most of us are Masters at avoiding it at all costs! Hell, look at me, I'm still posting on Facebook from time to time despite the fact that it is completely enshittified and almost everyone has left.
MWB Bailey, well put. If we can overcome these communications challenges relating to Lodge management across generational/situational divides, perhaps these benefits will convey beyond the minor challenges we face in Lodge.
This could offer us the ability to learn to understand each other’s positions and intentions, to better meet each other from a place of empathy and understanding.
Thank you for the reminder to communicate and listen for the purpose of mutual understanding and benefit.
>>>perhaps these benefits will convey beyond the minor challenges we face in Lodge.
I think that this is exactly right. Learning to communicate about complex subjects, cross generationally and with effectiveness is a skill we can learn in Lodge that will benefit us in other areas of our lives. Our personal and our professional lives.
And I think that is really important. Helping a man improve himself in ways that will help him outside of the Lodge can be a great benefit of Freemasonry. If we do it.
Old Fartery is a mindset, not an age defined one. I might be in denial but I still consider myself middle aged, except my drivers license claims otherwise. It's odd to think that yes, I am entitled to sit in the "seniors" seats on a bus now, although I don't feel "senior".
But more to the point, I've forgotten more about technology than most of these young whipper snappers will ever know. But there is an ocean of technology that baffles me to no end. I'm a hardware guy. I build and manage servers and the applications they run. I've set up and managed hundreds of desktop PCs. I've built many PCs from scratch. I've owned PCs since about 1980.
going back even further, I've worked on mainframes, computer that were older than me. I've spent months in schools learning electronics. I've built and repaired circuit boards. I used to know how to use an oscilloscope. I love Boolean logic. I know what a subnet mask is. VLANs. I'm telling you, a vast plethora of otherwise useless knowledge today, like, what a mosfet is. What do the color bands on a resistor mean. Useless crap.
But cloud computing? Forgetaboutit. Could be talking Greek to me. I have access to Azure, GCP, AWS, and only know about 1% of what's there. It's like my brain just says, "sorry, parks closed, the moose out front should have told you that".
I do agree, Old Fartery is a mindset. I still think of myself as one of the young guys in Lodge. But, when those thoughts do come, I try to remember that I am not. Lest I eventually become one of those Past Masters who refuse anything new and hold a Lodge back because of it.
I've read all of the previous comments and they're all on point. Age, education, and life style differences make effective communication both difficult and urgently necessary.
I also think there is a broader point. We're so comfortable dwelling on our history and our traditions that by the time we get to thinking about our future it's already happened. And since we didn't think about it and plan for it we opt for the comfort of our past. We have long range planning committees and may or may not do anything and then a new WM is installed and the importance of that committee likely changes,
But this isn't about committees. It about our culture. If we want Masonry to be around 50 or 100 years from now we need to analyze what's going to appeal to a boy who's in third grade and will be eligible to petition in 10 years. That's a big challenge since we have trouble communicating with the Brothers who are in the room today.
I don't know the answer, but we've really should put the question on table and work on it with an open mind. And such an exercise won't be effective if done in a single lodge, it really should be addressed at a Grand Lodge level as well.
When I was DDGM I tried to do this in my District meeting. The District Brothers loved the program. Six years later I'm still getting compliments. But the Grand Lodge team felt that it took too long. In hindsight the District meeting was probably the wrong venue, but I'll take at least a little credit for putting the question on the table.
>>>If we want Masonry to be around 50 or 100 years from now we need to analyze what's >>>going to appeal to a boy who's in third grade and will be eligible to petition in 10 years.
Your point is well taken. If we plan now to attract the man who is 25 now, we will be far behind by the time we put our plans into motion. I don't know how we plan now for what that 3rd grader might want, but I think you are right, we should certainly attempt to figure it out.
Here's another thought: We have a Grand Historian. Nothing wrong with that. But we need a Grand Futurist.
Not a job for me, the world continually surprises me with the changes we see.
Perhaps a young Mason, Millennial or younger, who demonstrates strategic thinking skills should be appointed Grand Futurist, and he should work hand-in-hand with other Millenials and a couple DeMolay members
Agreed, it is a solid idea. Particularly given that we tend to most often only appoint those men to Grand Lodge Office that have a great many years within the Craft.
As you've probably heard me say before, our greatest strength, and our greatest weakness, is that we do a great job of talking to ourselves.