Minimum is just that. It's certainly not the end-all. I definitely believe that proper investigation is required whether a man is 18 or 50. And, conversely, a 16 year old may be just as deserving of our attention (or even more so) even if he can't yet petition the lodge if we see those qualities in him that we know will make him a good member of our lodge and brother of our fraternity.
>>>a 16 year old may be just as deserving of our attention (or even more so) even if he can't >>>yet petition the lodge if we see those qualities in him that we know will make him a good >>>member of our lodge and brother of our fraternity.
An excellent point, and one that I certainly agree with.
Years ago now, one of my Lodges was blessed to have a young man who helped us a great deal, and became an important part of the Lodge from about 14 to 18 years old. He was superb, and everyone thought very highly of him.
After graduating from High School he joined the military, so we didn't see him any more, but he still keeps in touch, and I have no doubt but that when his service is done, he will Petition a Lodge, this one or otherwise.
Nonage is a concept (at least as Masons presently use it) that is related to mental/social maturity. We ANDALSO have a straight "age" requirement to join. This is completely separate in my mind. The individual must in our jurisdiction be both a man of lawful age (an adult in the eyes of society in general) and mature enough for the degrees in fact.
Similarly, our treatment of dotage does not refer strictly to age. Can we initiate a man in his 85th year? It depends. What is his mental state? I've known 85 year old men who are sharp as a tack. And ones who are unable physically and/or mentally to take care of themselves. Which category does this potential brother fall in?
That's the question. Is he able to understand and freely & meaningfully accept the obligation and the duties that go with it? It's really the same question at both the nonage and dotage ends of the spectrum.
And the answer to both is that we have an obligation to guard the West Gate. However, especially in the case of a young man, we (the corporate we) seem to want to guard the gate without passing judgement on those attempting to gain entry. Both in general, and in regards to younger men in particular. We seem to have a desire to look with a "he's basically good, he'll grow out of it and mature" lens. Honestly, if we have an internal dialog like that, it's an indicator that we know the fellow is still in his nonage. Likewise there seems to be an idea that "if we turn him away, we have made an enemy for freemasonry. If it's not for him, well, he'll just drift away." While I think that this is often true, I would argue that we're abdicating our role as gatekeepers. Which has an icky connotation in our greater society at the moment. Nonetheless, we have promised not to recommend a man for membership unless certain conditions are met.
There is some grey. Since our goal is to make good men better, clearly we accept men that fall far short of perfect - such as me! That doesn't absolve us of the duty of discernment and rendering an opinion on if the man knocking has met our minimum standards for mental and social maturity. I personally feel we do actual damage to the craft, both in general and to a specific lodge, every time we admit a man we know we should not.
>>>We seem to have a desire to look with a "he's basically good, he'll grow out of it and >>>mature" lens. Honestly, if we have an internal dialog like that, it's an indicator that we >>>know the fellow is still in his nonage.
I agree with that. If we have to do any amount of 'talking ourselves into' dropping that white ball, we shouldn't be dropping that white ball.
>>>gatekeepers. Which has an icky connotation in our greater society at the moment.
Yes, but nevertheless, gatekeepers play vital roles. In Masonry, and in broader society.
How cool is it that today anyone at all can publish and have a book printed? Awesome in my view.
But conversely, I just read a printed book so riddled with spelling errors that there were multiple on every single page. Even one on the Title Page! The old gatekeepers of publishing would have ensured that it was edited before it went to print.
>>>Since our goal is to make good men better, clearly we accept men that fall far short of >>>perfect - such as me!
The discussion we had at several lodges on this topic revolved into distinguishing Adults from Children... It is not only age--except legally, when certain things can occur at ages 16, 18, 21.
Rather, there is a stage in-between childhood and adulthood which interferes with the transition.
It is called Adolescence... K12 and higher education have been massively contributing to Extending Adolescence in children--regardless of age: ooohhh it is not your fault; ooohhhh the tests are too difficult; the tests are racist;
Teacher never tell a kid: it is YOUR fault
We see it in people in the workforce: ooohh it is not my fault--it was his fault, her fault; I woke up late--the alarm did not work;
These adolescents are readily distinguishable, and it can easily come out during the Discovery Process (early meetings over coffee, breakfast)
An adolescent is anyone over the age of 18 who wants all the Privileges of Adulthood--but with the Responsibility of a Child....
Guarding the West Gate means deciding (Judging!!) if someone is actually owning their own life, and the consequences of their choices....
Listen closer the next time someone talks about their life, work success and failures....
I agree. The way we are raising, and educating, our children today is and will drastically increase the time they remain in adolescence. You touch upon the educational system's contributions to this, but it is reflected in parenting too. "My lil' Monster is more special than you're lil' Monster... No, I'd never allow Jimmy to walk to the park by himself... Sue needs a cell phone so that I can reach her at all times... &c." Maturity, I think, comes partly from responsibility, but also from consequences.
If we don't allow our kids to mess up, they will never face consequences from their bad decisions. Or if we don't allow them to have consequences by fixing it for them.
It's an interesting thing. My best friend as a young man, Mike, reached maturity earlier than I did. Because his bad circumstances required him to. I reached it a few years after him. Some men, not a lot, but some haven't yet reached it at my current age. I know a couple of those.
Great question Brother! In Nova Scotia a Lewis' Son can join at 18. We have one in our Lodge. Now, a few year later, he said he found it helped him because he could talk to a lot of much and not much older Brothers. It helped him decide to join the Canadian Army (my Lodge was formed in 1959 by RCAF personnel and we're the only military Lodge left in Atlantic Canada (we use the RCAF roundel on our aprons) so there's that. Perhaps much depends on the nature of the Lodge and too, the man. I wasn't that mature at 18, for certain! One thing we do assess in the investigation with petitioned men, is their emotional maturity. Some just aren't.
In my years as a Mason, I have tremendously benefited from the age differences between men in the Lodge's I'm affiliated with.
As a younger Mason, I learned so much from the old guys in Lodge. Important things, just by watching and interacting with them.
Now, as a guy entering old fart age, I still learn some from those quite a bit older than myself, but I learn a heck of a lot from the young guys. Especially my urban Lodges are filled with younger men, and I learn so much from them. It keeps me current, or at least as current as I will allow myself to be.
I know that I wasn't ready for such thinking as I ended my time in a DeMolay Chapter. At the end of my University Engineer Degrees, I won a Lottery (my birthdate popped up as a number under 40 in the "Draft Lottery")! Ha.
So the US Army was in my life, first as a National Guard enlistee, then as a graduate of the NY Army Nat'l Guard's Empire State Military Academy. As a 2LT, I was a Project Leader building Latrines for Female Cadets at Camp Buchner when West Point was about to go COED (supervised about 10 soldiers).
I considered myself too busy with my Civilian Career M-F plus NYARNG weekend duties, to consider a Masonic Petition. Finally, in my mid-30's, I did so.
I don't know that the question should be age, but character and maturity. Ask your self when was the last time you saw a black cube dropped because of a mans character or lack of maturity? And do immature boys stick around and add value? I say they do. They are full of energy and many times looking for direction. Their character may be honest and good. The members of DeMolay that have moved in to Masonic membership have proven that to me. They revitalize a lodges base will to do something. They have expectations, and given good guidance will move mountains to meet them. Now a lodge with no mentors is a recipe for disaster.
>>>Now a lodge with no mentors is a recipe for disaster.
This is a great point to bring to this discussion. Thank you for it.
I unfortunately see failures in mentorship from time to time. And after as much time as I've spent in Masonry, they've become fairly easy to spot.
In my view, our Lodges would do very well to intentionally work to develop mentors, figure out who can do it well, and ensure that they are given the opportunity to serve as such. Too often it is a willy-nilly kind of thing, at least here.
Maturity varies from individual to individual. I was more mature at the age of 10 than my dads adopted brother Dennis has ever been.
I think if a man is mature enough to have a steady job, be punctual, have a clean record, doesn't get involved in physical altercations that can be easily avoided simply by walking away, and honors his own word, he is already there. Thus, I was ready at the age of 15. It could be argued that since my last fight started with getting punched without provocation at the age of 14 by an upperclassmen in school, I couldn't exactly avoid that fight. But I had my first paying job outside of the family farm at age 10 as a newspaper delivery boy and I regularly won paper carrier of the month for accurate and timely delivery on my 142 customer route.
Your points are very well taken. Thank you. I matured at a later age than you, although I was employed young too, but also like you, I do know a guy or two my age now who still haven't matured beyond high school.
Minimum is just that. It's certainly not the end-all. I definitely believe that proper investigation is required whether a man is 18 or 50. And, conversely, a 16 year old may be just as deserving of our attention (or even more so) even if he can't yet petition the lodge if we see those qualities in him that we know will make him a good member of our lodge and brother of our fraternity.
>>>a 16 year old may be just as deserving of our attention (or even more so) even if he can't >>>yet petition the lodge if we see those qualities in him that we know will make him a good >>>member of our lodge and brother of our fraternity.
An excellent point, and one that I certainly agree with.
Years ago now, one of my Lodges was blessed to have a young man who helped us a great deal, and became an important part of the Lodge from about 14 to 18 years old. He was superb, and everyone thought very highly of him.
After graduating from High School he joined the military, so we didn't see him any more, but he still keeps in touch, and I have no doubt but that when his service is done, he will Petition a Lodge, this one or otherwise.
Nonage is a concept (at least as Masons presently use it) that is related to mental/social maturity. We ANDALSO have a straight "age" requirement to join. This is completely separate in my mind. The individual must in our jurisdiction be both a man of lawful age (an adult in the eyes of society in general) and mature enough for the degrees in fact.
Similarly, our treatment of dotage does not refer strictly to age. Can we initiate a man in his 85th year? It depends. What is his mental state? I've known 85 year old men who are sharp as a tack. And ones who are unable physically and/or mentally to take care of themselves. Which category does this potential brother fall in?
That's the question. Is he able to understand and freely & meaningfully accept the obligation and the duties that go with it? It's really the same question at both the nonage and dotage ends of the spectrum.
And the answer to both is that we have an obligation to guard the West Gate. However, especially in the case of a young man, we (the corporate we) seem to want to guard the gate without passing judgement on those attempting to gain entry. Both in general, and in regards to younger men in particular. We seem to have a desire to look with a "he's basically good, he'll grow out of it and mature" lens. Honestly, if we have an internal dialog like that, it's an indicator that we know the fellow is still in his nonage. Likewise there seems to be an idea that "if we turn him away, we have made an enemy for freemasonry. If it's not for him, well, he'll just drift away." While I think that this is often true, I would argue that we're abdicating our role as gatekeepers. Which has an icky connotation in our greater society at the moment. Nonetheless, we have promised not to recommend a man for membership unless certain conditions are met.
There is some grey. Since our goal is to make good men better, clearly we accept men that fall far short of perfect - such as me! That doesn't absolve us of the duty of discernment and rendering an opinion on if the man knocking has met our minimum standards for mental and social maturity. I personally feel we do actual damage to the craft, both in general and to a specific lodge, every time we admit a man we know we should not.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
>>>We seem to have a desire to look with a "he's basically good, he'll grow out of it and >>>mature" lens. Honestly, if we have an internal dialog like that, it's an indicator that we >>>know the fellow is still in his nonage.
I agree with that. If we have to do any amount of 'talking ourselves into' dropping that white ball, we shouldn't be dropping that white ball.
>>>gatekeepers. Which has an icky connotation in our greater society at the moment.
Yes, but nevertheless, gatekeepers play vital roles. In Masonry, and in broader society.
How cool is it that today anyone at all can publish and have a book printed? Awesome in my view.
But conversely, I just read a printed book so riddled with spelling errors that there were multiple on every single page. Even one on the Title Page! The old gatekeepers of publishing would have ensured that it was edited before it went to print.
>>>Since our goal is to make good men better, clearly we accept men that fall far short of >>>perfect - such as me!
Yes, myself as well. I am very far from perfect.
The discussion we had at several lodges on this topic revolved into distinguishing Adults from Children... It is not only age--except legally, when certain things can occur at ages 16, 18, 21.
Rather, there is a stage in-between childhood and adulthood which interferes with the transition.
It is called Adolescence... K12 and higher education have been massively contributing to Extending Adolescence in children--regardless of age: ooohhh it is not your fault; ooohhhh the tests are too difficult; the tests are racist;
Teacher never tell a kid: it is YOUR fault
We see it in people in the workforce: ooohh it is not my fault--it was his fault, her fault; I woke up late--the alarm did not work;
These adolescents are readily distinguishable, and it can easily come out during the Discovery Process (early meetings over coffee, breakfast)
An adolescent is anyone over the age of 18 who wants all the Privileges of Adulthood--but with the Responsibility of a Child....
Guarding the West Gate means deciding (Judging!!) if someone is actually owning their own life, and the consequences of their choices....
Listen closer the next time someone talks about their life, work success and failures....
I agree. The way we are raising, and educating, our children today is and will drastically increase the time they remain in adolescence. You touch upon the educational system's contributions to this, but it is reflected in parenting too. "My lil' Monster is more special than you're lil' Monster... No, I'd never allow Jimmy to walk to the park by himself... Sue needs a cell phone so that I can reach her at all times... &c." Maturity, I think, comes partly from responsibility, but also from consequences.
If we don't allow our kids to mess up, they will never face consequences from their bad decisions. Or if we don't allow them to have consequences by fixing it for them.
It's an interesting thing. My best friend as a young man, Mike, reached maturity earlier than I did. Because his bad circumstances required him to. I reached it a few years after him. Some men, not a lot, but some haven't yet reached it at my current age. I know a couple of those.
Great question Brother! In Nova Scotia a Lewis' Son can join at 18. We have one in our Lodge. Now, a few year later, he said he found it helped him because he could talk to a lot of much and not much older Brothers. It helped him decide to join the Canadian Army (my Lodge was formed in 1959 by RCAF personnel and we're the only military Lodge left in Atlantic Canada (we use the RCAF roundel on our aprons) so there's that. Perhaps much depends on the nature of the Lodge and too, the man. I wasn't that mature at 18, for certain! One thing we do assess in the investigation with petitioned men, is their emotional maturity. Some just aren't.
In my years as a Mason, I have tremendously benefited from the age differences between men in the Lodge's I'm affiliated with.
As a younger Mason, I learned so much from the old guys in Lodge. Important things, just by watching and interacting with them.
Now, as a guy entering old fart age, I still learn some from those quite a bit older than myself, but I learn a heck of a lot from the young guys. Especially my urban Lodges are filled with younger men, and I learn so much from them. It keeps me current, or at least as current as I will allow myself to be.
I know that I wasn't ready for such thinking as I ended my time in a DeMolay Chapter. At the end of my University Engineer Degrees, I won a Lottery (my birthdate popped up as a number under 40 in the "Draft Lottery")! Ha.
So the US Army was in my life, first as a National Guard enlistee, then as a graduate of the NY Army Nat'l Guard's Empire State Military Academy. As a 2LT, I was a Project Leader building Latrines for Female Cadets at Camp Buchner when West Point was about to go COED (supervised about 10 soldiers).
I considered myself too busy with my Civilian Career M-F plus NYARNG weekend duties, to consider a Masonic Petition. Finally, in my mid-30's, I did so.
I think that the 30's are a great age to join. Life is generally fairly stable by then. It was, I think, late 30's for me.
I don't know that the question should be age, but character and maturity. Ask your self when was the last time you saw a black cube dropped because of a mans character or lack of maturity? And do immature boys stick around and add value? I say they do. They are full of energy and many times looking for direction. Their character may be honest and good. The members of DeMolay that have moved in to Masonic membership have proven that to me. They revitalize a lodges base will to do something. They have expectations, and given good guidance will move mountains to meet them. Now a lodge with no mentors is a recipe for disaster.
>>>Now a lodge with no mentors is a recipe for disaster.
This is a great point to bring to this discussion. Thank you for it.
I unfortunately see failures in mentorship from time to time. And after as much time as I've spent in Masonry, they've become fairly easy to spot.
In my view, our Lodges would do very well to intentionally work to develop mentors, figure out who can do it well, and ensure that they are given the opportunity to serve as such. Too often it is a willy-nilly kind of thing, at least here.
Maturity varies from individual to individual. I was more mature at the age of 10 than my dads adopted brother Dennis has ever been.
I think if a man is mature enough to have a steady job, be punctual, have a clean record, doesn't get involved in physical altercations that can be easily avoided simply by walking away, and honors his own word, he is already there. Thus, I was ready at the age of 15. It could be argued that since my last fight started with getting punched without provocation at the age of 14 by an upperclassmen in school, I couldn't exactly avoid that fight. But I had my first paying job outside of the family farm at age 10 as a newspaper delivery boy and I regularly won paper carrier of the month for accurate and timely delivery on my 142 customer route.
Your points are very well taken. Thank you. I matured at a later age than you, although I was employed young too, but also like you, I do know a guy or two my age now who still haven't matured beyond high school.